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Where do you think you fall on the SMV scale?’ Kim asks me.

‘Um.’ I google SMV. Sexual Market Value is ‘a measure of desirability for sex in the eyes of a person of the opposite sex’, according to the online male supremacist community Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW). ‘Don’t know,’ I confess. ‘How would I?’

‘Well, it’s hard to judge yourself and often we don’t know exactly how we are perceived. It’s not uncommon to inflate or devalue one’s attractiveness.  But as a woman it is often said our SMV goes up if we control our weight.’ She adds: ‘Ultimately, your SMV can only really be told to you by men, and even then it’s subjective. You might be an 8 to one guy and a 5 to another.’

‘I see. So do you know yours?’

Kim tells me that she went from size 20 to size 14 in one year after joining the Red Pill Women, a female anti-feminist community on the discussion platform Reddit. ‘I am sure it helped, since I am treated differently. But I am not stopping traffic or anything. My face is average or even below average, which probably keeps my SMV low even though I’m skinny now.’


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I stare at her brutal self-evaluation. This is a typical discussion in the forum. Kim is one of roughly 30,000 self-described Red Pill Women or Trad Wives (short for Traditional Wives). Like the MGTOW men’s-rights activists, these women perceive gender roles as the result of ‘sexual economics’. The heterosexual community, they believe, should be seen as a market place, where women are sellers and men buyers of sex. A woman’s single most important resource is therefore, according to them, her SMV.

This radically simplistic view of gender relations is used to legitimise the objectivisation of women; to make it acceptable, even necessary, to rate, trade and replace women – like market goods. This is now my third week talking to the Trad Wives and I have started to get used to their endorsement of openly misogynist statements. ‘Women’s highest value to men is her sexual value, and she’s most valuable when she’s in her sexually pristine state,’ I am repeatedly told. To see where you stand in terms of sexual value, Kim recommends trying some apps that allow you to get rated anonymously: from the old-school Hot or Not to a more sophisticated attractiveness rating service on Photofeeler.

‘Okay […] but what about other factors like being funny, educated or having exotic passions?’ I ask, half knowing the answer.

‘Oh come on. Health, age and femininity are the single most important qualities that appeal to men,’ Kim says. ‘Education, career or workplace does not influence a woman’s SMV. Think about it, they don’t enhance the sexual satisfaction of her male partner.’ This is in line with MGTOW’s assessments: ‘The SMV of a woman is given by birth and her achievements in life do little to increase it,’ they claim.


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‘Oh and your SMV also goes down if your N-count goes up,’ a woman named Marie adds.

‘The what count?’ I ask her, starting to feel a little stupid.

‘The N-count. You know, her cock count,’ Marie explains. ‘While being sexually experienced may increase the physical pleasure of her male partner, being sexually inexperienced actually increases  satisfaction.’ Marie is in her early thirties and married. Apart from being a ‘good wife’, she sees her mission as giving tips on dating, relationships and marriage to fellow Red Pill Women on Reddit. She appears to be one of the most frequently consulted coaches in the community. Many women drill her with questions ranging from ‘How do female duties change upon pregnancy and childbirth?’ to ‘Is chastity before marriage necessary?’

Marie is convinced that feminism has brainwashed men and women into believing that the N-count doesn’t matter. ‘But human nature will always prevail sooner or later,’ she tells me. ‘And human male nature is to have less and less desire for a woman as her N-count rises. Eventually, this lack of desire will turn to outright disgust.’ She gives the example of ‘a smoking hot, 10/10 bombshell beauty’ who has had sex with a thousand men. ‘How many men will want to marry her? Very few. Why?’ Before anyone can respond, she continues: ‘Because women are the gatekeepers of sex. Sex is the main thing that men need from women. Therefore, it’s the prime value that a woman has. Each time she gives this value to a man, her value is diminished.’

The Trad Wives movement is a small but growing internet phenomenon that developed as the female equivalent of The Red Pill (TRP), a Reddit community that the New Hampshire Republican state house member Robert Fisher anonymously founded under the nickname pk_atheist in 2012. TRP promised ‘discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men’ and counted roughly 300,000 subscribers before being banned by Reddit in 2017 for its toxic, dehumanising and threatening content.

But TRP is only one part of a much bigger misogynist online community, the so-called ‘Manosphere’, which played a key role in the creation of the alt-right and is made up of a range of sub-cultures: from the secret seduction community of the Pick Up Artists (PUA), who seek to learn how to manipulate women’s minds to get them into bed, and the anti-marriage community MGTOW, which teaches men to stop caring about women, to the male supremacist Men’s Rights Activists (MRA) and the vengeful Involuntary Celibacy (Incel) movement of men whose main goal is to punish the women they make responsible for their sexual frustration. While these groups pursue different strategies to ‘reconquer’ male power, pride and privilege, they all share an outright hostility towards feminism, liberalism and modern gender roles. They ridicule movements like #MeToo and denounce women’s-rights activists as ‘feminazis’.


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After reading Angry White Men by Michael Kimmel I was convinced this was an almost exclusively male phenomenon. But the more time I spend immersing myself with the Red Pill Women, the more I understand that anti-feminist movements aren’t just made up of men. Female men’s-rights activists who want to return to traditional power roles and exaggerated notions of masculinity and femininity have adopted the rhetoric of the Manosphere. ‘Feminism is attacking the white male,’ the Russian-American alt-right activist Lana Lokteff claimed on the white supremacist Radio 3Fourteen.

The Red Pill Women community is ‘open to all women wanting to improve themselves and their relationships’, but it does have a few official rules, most notably:

Rule Five:  No feminism. This is an anti-feminist community, and as such, we are not interested in being ‘saved’ by feminism. Anybody stopping in to weigh-in with the feminist perspective will be shown the door, as it is off topic.

Instead, conversations should be based on traditional evolutionary psychology or an anti-feminist premise.

‘I’ve been learning and growing, becoming more virtuous through God’s grace and learning to follow my husband and submit instead of making demands and arguing […] It’s beautiful, really. The biggest thing I’ve done is to just say “yes”. Yes to what he asks for or wants […],’ one woman writes after having been indoctrinated by the Trad Wives for several weeks.

This excerpt from Going Dark, The Secret Social Lives of Extremists by Julia Ebner has been published with permission from Bloomsbury Publishing.

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164 Comments Share Your Views

164 COMMENTS

  1. How come men are evil for wanting woman to go back their traditional roles, but it’s ok for woman to currently be expecting men to do their traditional roles?

  2. Both men and women have an SMV. The makeup of men’s SMV includes among other things, their wealth and age. These are no less objectifying of men than looks are of women – just different in nature. Yes, men don’t like women with large body counts, because they lose the ability to pair bond, and because it calls loyalty into question. Loyalty is critical to males from an evolutionary standpoint because of the very real danger of mistakenly dedicating resources to a child that is not his genetic offspring. There is nothing inherently anti-liberal about Red Pill, though I concede that conservatives tend to predominate. I am liberal. Traditional marriage acts as a brake against the inflationary pressure of hypergamy. It provides a wider range of men a vested interest in society. Traditional marriage is Socialism. It was successful Socialism until things like no-fault divorce became a thing. Now we have total deregulation of marriage and it no longer serves any function.

  3. Feminism usually backtracks only when they see men pushing back and their meal tickets and slave labor are threatened. It’s happened at least three times and I’m old enough to have seen it twice already.
    They’ll flip back again.
    We can count on that.

  4. OMG Finally there are some women who understand SMV and the fact that their beauty decreases so that they should not have such ridiculous high standards, what happens? They got criticized by other women. Un-be-lievable.
    Yeah, freeze your eggs, because if you can’t find a man when you’re 30 you surely will find them when you’re 40….

  5. These women are utterly clueless. No man respects a woman who’s a complete doormat nor will he just look at sexual value. Personality, some intelligence (don’t want dumb kids), religious affiliation or lack thereof, comparability play big roles.
    While it’s true we don’t want women who sleep around, how many men want these horrible Christian right wing women. Uggh, no thanks!

  6. Every one has a choice to their own opinion. What I find frustrating from my own personal experience. I just instinctually am a more traditional woman. I felt as though the left agenda was pushed on me to become something that I’m not… I don’t think that’s fair either. It took me until my thirties to realize that. I’m sure there’s others like me.Feminist ideology caused a lot of stress in my life…. It’s like involuntary gender reassignment. Just stating my own opinion

  7. MGTOW rights activists? Rights activists? Since when did we take to the streets! Don’t confuse us with MRA’s or INCELS! Our own goal is either to withdraw or just to protect us from the delusions you spew!

    Do some more research next time! Don’t confuse us with your misandrist bias! It’s the very reason why we even exist!!!

  8. Feminism is caused by these low life loser women demons. Women are very evil period. Especially the ones that are out there today.

      • Yeah, for being a genious. Every guy on dating apps confirms this. Most women behave awful.
        If it weren’t for sex I would never date again. Yoiun are so lucky that only you can offer that or 90% of men wouldn’t put up with women.

      • To Anonymous, a lot of women are very mentally disturbed these days. Especially when many of us single men will get Cursed Out by these women for no reason at all when we will just try to start a conversation with the one that we would really like too meet. What is wrong with that you moron? There are many of us good men that are just too good for these type of women anyway, since they’re very troubled nowadays unfortunately. And for your information, i know other friends that had women Cursed them out as well. What is up with that by the way? Why are most women so very rotten to us men now? There are many of us good ones still out there looking for a very serious relationship today, by the way.

        • You need your head examined. P.S. stay single, women don’t need men like you. Also you are single for a good reason, women don’t want you with your bad attitude that you have towards women. GROW UP!!!

          • Sounds like a whiny widow to me, girls are literally only good for one f$&@$& thing. To make my lineage continue. Finding a women that has SMV and brains is darn near impossible today. So ill just stick to finding a women with SMV i can tolerate. Then im getting a prenup and leaving her just for the child . Ill give her a couple mil for the pain

          • Love how you just assume it’s women’s choice ….not his why he’s single…
            I have 4 FWB and will NEVER get deeply involved with a woman again…give her any leverage.
            I’ve always had female attention…yet I’m single for 6 years straight now.
            Love how men who have the balls to stand up and speak the truth have to be ‘incels’ or butthurt from rejection when FACT IS it’s VERY RARE to find women who are remotely balanced enough to have. Mutually respectful relationship with.
            They always were difficult but now all worst traits exasperated and soft weak men bad combination ..hyper-agressive BS where there’s no peace anymore.
            I was ONCE hurt really bad 2 kids..
            A long time ago, I could now easily handle a woman who’s worth it…
            6 years and can’t find one worth keeping….that’s not already taken or into 50s…
            I’m still open to the idea but you gotta be joking to suggest anyone speaking as he did has to be a “sexual loser”
            Sure, tell men to ‘man up’ in a productive way, don’t encourage weakness..
            But DONT SHAME LIKE A WOMAN WOULD..
            Good day

  9. This article forgot to mention how often tradwives also end up being white supremacists. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked for some cute “cottagecore” content on Tumblr or Pinterest and ended up with flowery images of nazi-quotes and other sugar-coated racist propaganda. Some of them openly tweeted about doing your duty to your race by producing as many white “Aryan” children as possible. It’s absolutely wild, but really it makes a lot of sense! Who better to be the face of a modern white supremacist movement than a traditionally feminine, innocent-looking, young, white woman? A lot of it is so frilly and cutesy you nearly miss the hatred hidden just beneath the surface and then they hit you with some full-on angry antisemitic rant, preceded and followed by pictures of fresh-baked pies and babies and baskets full of kittens. Obviously, not all tradwives are white supremacists but enough of them are that it’s easy to come across their propaganda and rantings whilst simply looking for pictures of flower fields and tiny adorable cottages in the woods.

  10. Does it seems like your relationship as ended or about to end? Lord Zakuza is here to help out with his love spells. To get your ex bf/gf back, email Lord Zakuza on Lordzakuza7 @ gmail. com for he’s a GOD on earth..

      • And there are many of us good looking men that get Cursed out by women for no reason at all since these women just have very severe mental problems to begin with, and many of these type of women that are like that are Gay to begin with since they’re just real men haters themselves unfortunately to act that way with us. It has become very dangerous for many of us men just to say good morning or hello to a woman that we would really like too meet, and we now have to be very careful of sexual harassment since these type of very troubled women are looking to get us in trouble as well. Oh by the way, there are many of us good looking men out there that aren’t ugly at all and would just want to find a good woman to have a very serious relationship with. It is You women today that really treat us men very badly for no reason, especially when there are many of us good single men that can be very loving, caring, and very committed to only just one good woman. The real good old fashioned women in the old days were the very best of all, and most of the women back then were the very complete opposite of today. They were real ladies back then, and had very good manners and a great personality as well. Now i know why our family members were very lucky in those days when they met one another.

        • Mike, I find it interesting that some men get offended when anyone makes generalizations about them, but you have no qualms making terrible generalizations about women. That is the reason why you can’t find someone kind and caring. Your bad attitude towards women is the reason. Maybe you should think in terms of some women and not most. Just like there are mean, nasty men out in this world. It does not mean all are like that. Maybe there is also something else going on with you that you can’t find someone that is nice.

          • Hey, you just proved his point with that snarky comment in the end. You’re an apologist for the masculine woman movement, competing instead of cooperating (i’m saying that based on your other comments as well)

            Truth is – it takes two to tango, and women can’t dance! They’re trying to produce masculine moves, and what kind of man falls in love with a dude? Not me. If women are so intent on being cerebral, active, achieving and in control, they shouldn’t have a problem with men not approaching them, as they are now fully responsible rational beings, and as such they share the responsibility of starting the relationship on the right foot. But they want to eat the cake and have it too – being masculine while enjoying the perks of femininity. The modern woman is spiritually a dude.

            That said…
            Trad wives is your only option. You’re welcome.

        • ‘Oh by the way, there are many of us good looking men out there that aren’t ugly at all and would just want to find a good woman to have a very serious relationship with. It is You women today that really treat us men very badly for no reason, especially when there are many of us good single men that can be very loving, caring, and very committed to only just one good woman. ‘ This exactly.
          Women only go for the top 10-20% men on dating apps, men like 50% of women, we’re way less selective. Yes we aim high too but if we don’t succeed we aim lower. Women: ‘I’m a princess and entitled to only the best’, they even freeze their eggs because they don’t want to lower there standards. It’s hilarious to see desperate women of 35 craving for men to have kids with. It’s their own fault most of the times.

          • You Lennert definitely need your head examined. You and men just like you. Your attitude towards women is disgusting but you expect women to be ever so nice to you? You think women are going to be attracted to you with your disgusting attitude towards women? Men like you are always crying not all men but you stereotype women as if all women are the same. Shame on you.

          • To Anonymous, he is very right by the way. I even had women CURSE at me for no reason at all by just saying good morning or hello to them. What in the world is up with that anyway? It is these type of women nowadays that have really changed unfortunately, especially since they really have no manners and personality at all when it comes to many of us very serious single men looking to find love today.

  11. This is probably the most slanderous piece I have read in a while, mgtow is not alt right as you could attest by browsing the site, wanting people to acknowledge male struggles is “supremacist”, and people that are forced into involuntary celibacy, suffering from extreme loneliness, debilitating mental conditions, a lot of them just looking for fellowship are “men looking to punish women”, you are a poor excuse of a journalist. Everything in your article does not just show misinformation, it shows disinterest and negligence, you painted the picture you wanted to paint and did not talk with one of those people. The only part where you were possibly right is about the PUAs. Funny how in the midst of all this however there is no discourse of similar ideologies amongst women, and no mention of certain women subreddits banning men on sight…

    • MGTOW and incels are men who blame women for all their problems and these men won’t even change. Many “incels” are trolls, other half are decetly attractive just making excuses. Modern feminism, P.C Culture, MGTOW, Incels are all cringe as f***. Most people really don’t care and just wanna live.

      • Why do you talk about something you clearly don’t know? MGTOW is just male equivalent of feminism?
        MGTOW hAtEs wOmEn hUr dUrrRr

      • And the world was built by patriarchy. Stop spewing that feminism is the way to advance the world when most of them have mental problems. You know what feminism always says the bad things men did, how about we say the bad things women did. How about you try to search the White feather of cowardice. Where feminist in the UK gave men and under aged boys white feather’s to go to war, just to continue their propaganda. These feminist never cared about equality, they just wanted to push their agenda. Its Ironic because at that time the boys and men that were being given white feathers and sent too fight the war weren’t even able to vote

        • Hey Mr. B.S., You proved the point the patriarchy is dangerous why do you think we have war to begin with it’s the patriarchy. True in the human world and true in the animal world. You don’t have to be so angry Mr. B.S. You need to smile more.

          • “why do you think we have war to begin with it’s the patriarchy.”

            LOL. If you think women in power wouldn’t go to war, then you haven’t a clue about the nature of women. Just look how vicious women are toward each other, going to “war” with another woman at the office just because she doesn’t like the attention she gets. And that sort of viciousness toward each other doesn’t typically diminish with time, either.

      • Jami, (first English isn’t my first language, so sorry for my grammar errors)
        1: The only woman in the world who got the Fields’ Medal (= Nobel Prize in maths) comes from the most patriarcal country in the world : Iran
        2 : In Western countries, feminism has created women who sell themselves on Onlyfans, and when they are 30-35 y.o don’t understand why they have more troubles finding/keeping a man.
        3: feminism has mostly made…. MEN free, since they can now let women work for society, they can now play videogames at 30, and they can settle when they want since they remain fertile much longer than women.
        4: feminist’s biggest PARADOX : It’s in the most feminists/egalitarian countries (West so) that we see the biggest differences in choices of studies and jobs amongst men and women (men in STEM, women in social).
        5: feminsm was great…. 50 years ago. Today it’s a tool of politicians to make women work and contribute to capitalism.
        R.I.P

        • To Jody, My comment is in reference to your first point. Just. because one woman received a Nobel Prize from a patriarchal country does not negate the fact that patriarchy does not benefit both women and men. Your second point re: women not finding /keeping a man. A lot of women don’t want to be married and we very much enjoy being single. I am not sure why that makes a lot of men angry when women say they want to be single. I grew up in the 1970’s so I saw many changes since then. Hence, your third point that feminism made men free. It took a lot of the burden off men, they were responsible for a lot.. However in this day and age men are expected to be responsible in other ways ex. taking more responsibility for their children and doing their share in the home. I don’t know how true your point number 4 is. Your point number five, I am on this earth a long time,. at my age we see much better how the world runs. So everything is about economics. You sound upset that women work. Many women want fulfilling careers and they should be able to enjoy.it. Women working should not even be an issue today, it is the year 2021. There are women who tell me they don’t have to work but they have pride when they earn their own money. They also feel accomplished.

          • “A lot of women don’t want to be married and we very much enjoy being single.”

            Yes, that is what they say, but it’s definitely not what they feel.

  12. So people who don’t accept the narrative are extremists and supremacists? Journalism has become a joke and you’re all pushing ideology.

  13. These guys would be horrified to wake up as a woman one day because all these preconceived notions about women would fade away and realize we’re all human at the end of the day. We always fear the other, and these men are genuinely afraid of vulnerability, so they lash out in defense to preemptively protect themselves for a possibility of something bad happening. Women and men aren’t exclusively bad; there’s bad men and there’s bad women. But blaming an entire gender on the misery you have in your life (which you have FULL control over.), is not going to solve your problems. Not everyone has a good upbringing, but you have the power to change where you go from there. These guys who have complete distain for women, are actually doing a service by avoiding women. This protects women from these types of men because as you can see from how they act on these subreddits and the awful things they say about women, they are dangerous and abusive. I’m not going to change any minds here, these people are too far gone. But to end this, women are human beings, we are woven from the same fabric and species. Think about how you would act if you were born a woman and how you would go about life. And not all feminists are just doing what suits them, there are real feminists who take all the responsibilities (good and bad); as they should. People have to stop looking at men and women as different beings rather partners… unfortunately years of human conditioning and reinforced gendered-stereotypes and roles make it hard to break those generalizations. Some people can’t grasp empathy so this comment is a stretch… but to end what I’m saying: To stop the hate for the other, it starts with us.

  14. have any of these people considered living a life for the joy of living itself rather than being myopically fixated on reproducing? And for what, to make more little units that reproduce? Yeah sure that mindlessness governs unconscious beings but no matter how or why it came to be, we are (or can be) more than that, aware of drives but not slaves to them.

    Organize your life and your society around what’s lovely about living, not some panicky game you think you’ve divined from studying human nature (a tricky field – oftentimes all we see is a crude summary of what is, not anything near what actually is let alone accounting for potential for change)

    Genuine “Mgtow” – I have little to no beef with you. Just really ask yourself if you really are minding your business, giving at most advice aimed at explaining one option among many, living your preferred life while not resenting or trying to tear down others who aren’t like you. That means being respectful of women and men both choosing other paths.

    However I have encountered a self-proclaimed “mgtow” who also rapidly deteriorated into plain hate and calls for providing him sex slaves. Yes I know that makes him not a “mgtow” but you who are need to understand there are many such cases, so maybe have some patience for people not understanding the “ideal” version of it all. Because that is not what we see, often enough.

    The other thing I have noticed is male or female, soooo many of these “trad” people have a pathetic understanding of history, especially on a worldwide scale and not cherrypicked incidents removed from context. Sure that summarizes the average person, and isn’t the fault of any one culture/political group/etc but… damn. Is it funny to see. Traditional just means your grandpa did it, right? Never you mind that doesn’t create any one coherent set of expectations or rules. Everyone had grandparents, and newsflash, at no one point did they all agree and move in lockstep.

    Get a grip and defend your ideas for their own merrits, expect to be wrong in places and need to refine or rethink. I have many times and many times will again, particularly in places where I know I don’t know enough. That is what honest attempt to live well is like. Not being like “wow for sure this exact fever dream I articulated just now drawing on movies mostly is TRADITION and it’s ALWAYS worked for everyone UNCHANGED for ages and ages, therefore we should follow it”

    • Maria PQZ à lot of those people are probably happy the way they are, the only unhappy ones being incel. Show me one Mgtow asking for sex slaves in public? I doubt you ‘d find one, because it would be kind of self mining to support such views publicly, the question being now where and how did you come to “know” a MGTOW that advocated for that? And even then that’ s his fetish, good for him.

  15. “They want traditional roles to return.”

    From the title.

    Well, no shit, because now, this “progressive” bullshit is no longer benefiting them, but obligating them to do things that they very hypocritically don’t want to do, and never wanted to do in the first place, and will avoid it at all costs. And, progressivism is also becoming a problem for women, as men are simply saying “fuck you” and going their own way, leaving women to their own devices entirely.

    This traditionalism-progressivism dichotomy is really just like a pendulum; when one side stops benefiting you, and starts obligating you, you swing the pendulum all the way to the other side, and when THAT side stops benefiting you, and starts obligating you, you swing the pendulum back to start again. This just goes around in circles forever, because women are hypocrites who “want the best of both worlds”, as they say; however, this will not help women, but hurt them in the long run: men will see what women are doing, realize that they are hypocrites, and stop taking them seriously. In fact, this has already happened, as this is one of the reason for why MGTOW exists. Without mincing words, men are fed up with hypocritical female bullshit.

    The harsh truth is women really don’t give a fuck about “equality” (and in fact revel in it); in fact, women will gladly adhere to unfair conditions (in “inequality”, if you will) so as long as said conditions don’t directly and negatively impact them, but someone else. After all, if women did care about equality between the sexes, then why don’t we see scores of women doing the following?:

    – Protesting to end child support, welfare, and alimony as it is completely sexist, and unfair to men. It is also misandrist state-authorized extortion with the threat of incarceration if you cannot or will not pay. This is a big one, and for women

    – Asking men out on dates, and if they get rejected, taking said rejection with grace.

    – Protesting to end ANY and ALL misandrist laws and legal regimes that disenfranchise or hurt men, in any way shape or form.

    – …

    The list goes on, but these are the big three that came to mind; now, these were more governmental/societal/political actions but the actions of women could be as trivial as challenging stupid double standards hat favor women, and hurt men.

    So then, it begs the question: why aren’t women doing these things, or at the very least caring about changing these things? The answer is quite simple: they are hypocrites, and lobbying to change misandrist laws, legal regimes, and social norms, will “hurt” women because they are no longer pedestalized by them. If women TRULY cared about the welfare of men, and equality, then they would be doing all the above, and then some, but they’re not doing it because they don’t care. And the reason they don’t care is because it hasn’t become a serious problem for THEM.

    At the end of the day, we as men, DO have power: we can simply walk away from women, and society in general (going “John Galt”) and live our lives by ourselves. We refuse to reproduce with women, and this will have a shockwave-like effect: there are many industries, including the institution of marriage itself, that DEPEND on MEN’S WILLING PARTICIPATION in them. If men refuse to participate, these institutions and industries will go extinct. It’s true; the world, and societies at large DEPEND SO MUCH on men participating in them, and upholding them (usually for the benefit of some “Elite” group), EVEN if said society disenfranchises, or discriminates against them, and thereby gives them zero incentive to do so.

    There are many peoples’ livelihoods that depend on men getting married, including divorce lawyers, bridal shop owners, and wedding planners to name a few. MGTOW can “move mountains”, and the people who denigrate such men as “unattractive” or “incels” really don’t understand what MGTOW is, or if they do to whatever extent, they are extremely threatened by it. That is the reason why MGTOW is shamed and attacked, because if it we so “harmless” and inconsequential as these same people want you to believe, there would literally be NO REASON to shame to attack it. But alas, they do, for the reasons described above.

    Just what effects will MGTOW have on societies:

    – Fewer people. If us men are refusing to reproduce with women, that means there will be less offspring, and less people in that society.

    Some of the more economic/societal costs and effects will be:

    – People’s livelihoods who are dependent on men getting married will be threatened, and many people will possibly be out of a job. This includes divorce lawyers, wedding planners, bridal shop owners, etc.

    – The economy will also take a hit, as single men will only need to buy the basic requirements to survive, and most will become minimalists. Men just simply won’t waste their money on things that otherwise a demanding wife will demand they buy. As detailed above, jewelry stores and bridal shops and any other industry that can be associated with marriage will get hit the hardest.

    – Since there will be less people, more jobs will open up, but there won’t be enough people do do said jobs, not just because there will be less people, but also because not every person who does exist would be willing to do said jobs. The gynocentric governments do this to themselves, and they deserve it.

    – …

    Gynocentric governments hurt themselves, shoot themselves in the foot, and eventually the society collapses. If you want people to contribute to your society, don’t give them every disincentive under the sun to do so, including but not limited to punishments for reproducing.

    tl;dr: Women are hypocrites and nothing they say or do should be taken seriously. Look at what they do, and not listen to what they say. MGTOW is a manifestation of men asserting their power in a gynocentric Western society that disenfranchises and discriminates against them, leaving them zero incentive to contribute to it. (There’s much more, read the entire comment.)

    • Nobody is forcing you to get married. Men like you need to keep away from women, YOU ARE DOING WOMEN A FAVOR, KEEP AWAY FROM WOMEN!

      • Tell me, Jami: Did I ever SAY that anybody was “forcing” you to get married? Nope, I did not. And based on THAT response, you obviously understand very little about about what I said in the original comment, MGTOW itself, and issues facing men in a modern gynocentric, anti-male Western society.

        And based on your name, I’m guessing you’re a woman, and feel extremely threatened by the truth, thereby substantiating my points. So, thanks for strengthening the thesis, I guess.

        “Men like you need to keep away from women.”

        With pleasure, Jami. With pleasure.

        “YOU ARE DOING WOMEN A FAVOR, KEEP AWAY FROM WOMEN!”

        Well, I guess we are: we’re not the ones who will be buying all the cats, so enjoy them, so as long as you’re able-bodied, and can feed them, before they inevitably feed on YOU.

        • MGTOW, I am a PROUD WOMAN! It sounds as if YOU are threatened not only by the truth but by women. By the way it is our pleasure that men like you will keep away from women, a big thank you for keeping away from us.

          • Jami you sound like a child. Your “keep away from us girls” nastiness is really corrosive. Have you got the courage to make a sensible comment, or no?

          • This comment is directed at the person who referred to me as NOT A WOMAN. You took my comment out of context. The men who are writing these womanhating comments are the people that are saying that they don’t want to be near women. I am responding to those comments by saying don’t stay with women. Nobody is forcing these men who hate women to be with women. If you hate women so much you are doing women a favor by keeping away. That was a very sensible comment that I made. It is not at all corrosive or nasty. However the comments that you made about me are insulting (NOT A WOMAN) etc., are nasty and corrosive. Look around at all the womanhating comments here. I find it peculiar that you made a statement about me and not the disgusting comments made about women.

          • Catwoman So a woman getting pregnant is the male’s fault… Would you insinuate she has no agency? Did she never have the option to abort? And if it’s really a problem, then maybe virginity until marriage was sane? You are a deluded lunatic if you can’t see how backwards your reasoning is

  16. I’m confused by this article. You claim that these men value women primarily for their sexual appeal Then imply that is in some way hateful (misogynistic). How so? Sex or even just sex appeal is evil? Women hate sex? Women don’t value men for their sexuality?

    “Factor like funny, educated, exotic passions”? Ok great. That might make a good friend and if sexually attractive then a friend and sexual partner. Men sexually attracted to women and perpetuating the human species is the basis of human history. Congratulations on your discovery.

    If these attitude are in some way wrong perhaps you’d like to refute them…

  17. Well how does a group of guys going their way without wanting to be bogged down by a hell of rules become misogynists?if that were the case feminists would be misandrists?

  18. I looked her up, Julia Ebner is an Austrian terrorism and extremism researcher, and author, based in London. She has written the books The Rage: the Vicious Circle of Islamist and Far-Right Extremism and Going Dark: the Secret Social Lives of Extremists. She is age 29. Smv maybe 6.5-7. Just google her name to see.

  19. Lol, since journalism is in crisis, i can’t help but say.
    Learn to code, and stop writing biased articles for a living.

  20. Your article missed the point about SMV. SMV exist’s for both women and men and merely tracks how desireable women and men are to the opposite sex as a function of age. For women, their SMV is highest in the 18 to 30 year range. In this range they call the shots on who they date and couple with. They, as a rule, date men in their 30’s who have status and resources as men in their 20’s do not have their financial and mature act together. Men on the other hand have their highest SMV in their 30’s (and lowest SMV in their 20’s) because they have established careers and have generally set a direction in life for themselves. Womens SMV declines in their 30’s until “they hit the wall”. At that point women begin to experience what men experienced in their 20’s which is less interest by the opposite sex. They then have to “settle for less” which is disheartening because they had it all in their 20’s and now they dont.This decline in interest accelerates and by the time a women is 40 and has no children, she will unlikely have them. In our current state of society, where most dating occurs on social media (Tinder, Bumble, etc) there is virtually no opportunity to get to know someone except by their picture. OK Cupid compiled data that shows that women find 85% of men unattractive which means that most women on social media are contacting just 15% of men. Men on the other hand find 50% of women attractive which is a measure one would expect. Compare the average males experience to average womens experience on dating sites and you will find that women have 10 times the number of hits than guys do. The point with SMV is that dating sites have contorted the dating market to where a man or women has one or two seconds to catch an interested party’s eye and they swipe left or right in that short time. Who you are as a person is irrelevent during this initial screening and for guys where only the top 15% of men gather 100% of female attention, this 15% of men pay particular attention to SMV. Unfortunately the other 85% of men are left in the dust and exist merely as simp’s.

  21. This article is manipulative. The system goes both ways though.
    SMV also applies to males, and 80% of dudes are below 5, according to women. Men are judged way harsher by women than women by men.

  22. Feminism and #metoo will fail because sexy women are not going to repudiate their privilege. This is why there was backlash when Miss America tried to get rid of swimsuits. The female tradcon is like the male feminist.

    • PJ, if you are such a big believer in traditional gender roles then you would also believe that a man should take 2 and 3 jobs so his wife won’t have to work. I remember the 1960’s when the women had the say in how the children were raised not the men. Also it was rare for a man to get joint custody in those days. Another point is men had to pay alimony when there was a divorce. Men had a huge amount of responsibilities in those days. .If some men want women to go back to traditional roles let those men take on the traditional role of men as well, they won’t be happy. We should all thank the feminists for freeing us of those roles.

      • Actually in traditional roles the man wouldn’t get divorced. It wouldn’t be allowed. You’re confusing feminist changes to marriage since the 1960s. Traditionally there wouldn’t be allowed to divorce. She wouldn’t be allowed to rack up debt within the marriage so he wouldn’t need 2 jobs. He just wouldn’t give her access to his money (now feminists call that financial use). There wouldn’t be such thing as marital rape. He could simply have her anytime he wanted (no bs ‘headaches’). In real traditional marriages if she doesn’t do what she’s told and signed up for she gets to leave with zero….nothing. Oh you put in 10 years well who cares. Your mine for life if not get lose and you don’t get a dime. Corporations love feminism because women have no self control and spend spend like crazy so by legally making the husband responsible to her purchases on credit they win. The West were Corporations rule is the only place where this crap exists. It’s no wonder society is crumbling. Women rely on men for everything. If you think otherwise go back to the jungle and wipe your ass with bark. That was life before men built everything and all the machines that built everything else. Men built it by tying their sex drive (testosterone) to a vagina. You work and build and in exchange you get to fuck this chick any time you want…here take her. Simple as that. You really think men will continue working for free? Lol. Feminists are trying to brainwash young men to do just that. That’s all this toxic masculinity training (brainwashing) there are making mandatory in schools and university. But most men just quit so women loose anyways. If your not sucking his dick by age 23 tops no one wants you for marriage. Your on your own. Enjoy the jungle. For every Jlo that gets to have it all there are a million or more women who look exactly like Jlo, dance like Jlo, sing like Jlo, are driven like Jlo, etc. who get a middle or lower class life and that’s it….and to be clear that is ALL THEY DESERVE! And if you decided to spend your youth pursuing some fantasy and expect a man to save you well better start popping pills now it ain’t happening.

        • Ryan, something tells me you were not around in the old days . If you look at some of the old movies you would see if a man slightly insulted a woman she would slap the man in the face and nothing would happen to her. I don’t think anyone should hit anyone. The men took care of the outside world and the women ran the inside. It was the women that controlled the money in those days not the men. People tell me from other cultures that is the way it is. Men were responsible for most of a relationship. Women did not put gas in a car or even lift heavy packages , it was the man’s job. There are some men who want women to go back to those days. If they had the traditional role the men won’t be happy either. NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED INTO OUTDATED ROLES. By the way your end statement is so disgusting it’s not worth any comment.

  23. A feminist talking about “INDOCTRINATION” Hahaha!
    Since when natural roles are doctrines?
    We are just very intelligent animals.
    Denying your own biology it’s a baaad idea.

  24. I don’t think it is feminist garbage for a woman to be her own person instead of having babies and getting married. We don’t need that. I want my daughter to be able to do what she wants when she wants. Bowing down to someone else just sets you up for abuse.

    Btw the whole alpha thing is a myth.

        • Anonymous, No I am not a dangerous woman at all. I am a pacifist. I am telling the reality of life. At my age we see how life really is. What is dangerous are all the woman hating comments from the men. I think it is very bizarre that you call me out for being dangerous but not the vicious WOMANHATERS with their womanhating comments. There is a very dangerous comment made by irAte, odd that you don’t find his comment disturbing. I am just responding to the dangerous comments made about women. .With all the comments on here I find it very strange that you had a need to make a comment about me. Now come on and smile a little, don’t be so angry. By the way I think that you are very dangerous.

        • Anonymous, I happen to be a pacifist. I find it very bizarre that you called me out for my comments.
          I am just responding to the vicious womanhating comments from the men. IrAte made a very dangerous comment however you did not call him out for that comment. That is strange. Anonymous it sounds as if you are a very dangerous man.

        • You are a very dangerous man Anonymous. I am responding to the womanhating comments. That you don’t find a lot of these comments disturbing is bizarre. You call me out. It is very strange that you don’t find IrAte to be dangerous.

  25. These people are… Weird. But it’s their choice what they want to do. I’m worried about their future kids, actually. The indoctrination is going to be heavy….

      • Mgtow are a group of men who have an enormous male inferiority complex. They blame the feminists and women for their screwed up miserable lives. GROW UP ALREADY and stop blaming women for the problems you cause in your own world. IT IS A GOOD THING YOU BELIEVE IN GOING YOUR OWN WAY AND KEEPING AWAY FROM WOMEN.YOU ARE DOING WOMEN A FAVOR. Women don’t need you. It seems that these anti women scum are very dependent and needy of women. GROW UP CRYBOYS.

  26. Can’t be a traditional wife if you aren’t a virgin ladies. Loads of tradwives I see are women in their 30s who slept around during their 20s and now can’t attract the exciting bad boys anymore so they are trying to wed a good man to get that comfy life. Sorry, if you slept around or lived a sex, drugs and rock’n’roll lifestyle when you were young then you aren’t tradwife material, even less so if you have kids, only virgins in their prime (18 to early 20s) qualify.

    • Very true. As always, women change their appearance to gain what they want, but lipstick on a pig has never been palatable.

  27. Typical feminist garbage.

    Girls– Remember that by your early 30s, your eggs will be on their last legs.
    Dispel the feminist brainwashing if you want any chance of marriage & a successful family life.
    Women and men are not competitors– That’s why there are different leagues in both mental & physical sports. Research marxism and neomarxism. Learn the reality.

    • Your views are so distorted. The comment you made about women’s eggs could also be made about men’s bodies.. Men still produce sperm at all ages but so many men become impotent at a certain age. That tells men that their baby making days are over. Your comment about marriage is very outdated. A lot of women do not want to be married. A woman could be single and still have a successful family life. Also their is nothing wrong with women and men competing with each other. We compete with each other in the workplace and we should. It sounds as if you are afraid to compete with women. Learn the reality.

  28. Why are they an “extremist group” just for rejecting feminism? If anything look at pinkpillfeminism or femaledatingstrategy for examples of extremists.

  29. Why is it when men band together to try and identify ‘females,’ as a collective they are misogynistic? MGTOW has no leaders, no manifesto, no dues or fees, no meetings, no membership stamp. It seeks to understand females and warn Western males of the dangers of marriage and cohabitation. In all Western countries, why do females divorce 70-80% of the time? Why will a women never date a male on in a lower income bracket? Why will a female never date a shorter male? Why is lifetime alimony still a thing if we all equal? What does love mean for the male? for the female? Was romance a construct? If you want to know who rules over you, ask “who are you not allowed to criticize?” Women. Can’t ever criticize women. For half a century, men are fair game. Hell, it’s commonplace to criticize men as a whole.
    Western marriage is dead. Lowest rate ever. That timeless trade of resource and attention for sex and nurturing has overwhelming become ruinous in most Western democracies. However flawed, it served benefit to both sexes for generations. The allure, innocence, and hypnotic grace now merely rusty parlor tricks; used by conscious or self deceived grifters, getting older, alone. Forever blaming men.
    Millions no longer seek that pinnacle of young boys’ dreams…..testament to the impossibility of compromise with the oppressed.
    Truly equal now.
    Truly equal.
    Alone in the stinking dark.

  30. Feminists: We want the freedom to make our own choices, for all women.
    Traditional Women: OK we reject Feminism and what traditional roles.
    Feminists: ……… REEEEEEEE!

  31. “… according to the online female supremacist community, Feminism.” Don’t like that shit? Too bad! It’s equality :). If it wasn’t for your double standards, you wouldn’t have any fucking standards at all.

  32. “… according to the online male supremacist community Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW).”

    It is objectively false that MGTOW is a “male supremacist community” and the assertion is easily disproven by anyone who’s committed to being truthful, so your article is off to a pretty bad start.

    “This is in line with MGTOW’s assessments: ‘The SMV of a woman is given by birth and her achievements in life do little to increase it,’ they claim.”

    They claim? Who is “they”? This is yet another baseless assertion without citation. Why should anyone believe you? Why are you so lazy? Or do you feel that you and your cause are so virtuous that you’re entitled to say whatever you want?

    “After reading Angry White Men by Michael Kimmel …”

    Well there’s your problem right there. That guy has made a career out of being a male feminist supplicant man-hating hack.

    It appears that you have followed his example by forming ideologically based premises and then contorting and falsifying facts to present them as true.

    And like a true Karen, you can’t just leave people alone to live their lives the way they see fit and do what works best for them.

    If this article is in any way representative of the rest of your book, I would suggest that the title “Going Dark” refers to the empty place in your skull where your brain should be.

  33. “… according to the online male supremacist community Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW).”

    It is objectively false that MGTOW is a “male supremacist community” and the assertion is easily disproven by anyone who’s committed to being truthful, so your article is off to a pretty bad start.

    “This is in line with MGTOW’s assessments: ‘The SMV of a woman is given by birth and her achievements in life do little to increase it,’ they claim.”

    They claim? Who is “they”? This is yet another baseless assertion without citation. Why should anyone believe you? Why are you so lazy? Or do you feel that you and your cause are so virtuous that you’re entitled to say whatever you want?

    “After reading Angry White Men by Michael Kimmel …”

    Well there’s your problem right there. That guy has made a career out of being a male feminist supplicant man-hating hack.

    It appears that you have followed his example by forming ideologically based premises and then contorting and falsifying facts to present them as true.

    And like a true Karen, you can’t just leave people alone to live their lives the way they see fit and do what works for them.

    If this article is in any way representative of the rest of your book, I would suggest that the title “Going Dark” refers to the empty place in your skull where your brain should be.

  34. Ya know I really am starting to hate journalist.. we don’t hate women at all in fact the opposite.. we want this war on families and white men in general that subversive communist feminism has pushed to go away. Look at what is happening all around you.. you have no desire to even acknowledge some of the blame. People are growing very very tired of these stupid buzzwords you entitled feminist spew in your fake news articles. Modern day journalism is an enemy of the people and if you don’t wake up soon.. you’re going to find the majority of the public actively hates you for articles like these. Best of luck on waking up however. I can’t stand how people portray one side and argue what they “perceive” is someone’s beliefs.

  35. Tradcon and feminist scum are 2 sides of the same coin. They both want to enslave and exploit men.

    Great thing about MgToW is we dont really care about what either side wants or doesnt want; it’s all about self-preservation now.

    We have gone our own way, and there’s no coming back.

  36. You know, it shows when you have decided your conclusions, before doing your research, you conflate things, you truncate and cherry pick and then mash up even the definitions to make them more, shall we say “spicy.” Trashy writers like you should start polishing up their resumes, because the thing going around that shall not be named is putting real issued back on the map, your first world problem hate stroking will not be tolerated after all the dust settles so think long and hard about whether writing misinformation is the right life’s calling for you, maybe that would be time better spent than putting together shit like this.

  37. This article: Works very hard to call every possible men’s movement “misogynistic”

    Also this article: Can’t come up with a single reason one shouldn’t be a misogynist.

    I hate women. In my honest and heavily considered opinion they’re useless, ugly, lumpen, mishhapen, failed humans and possess not a single trait, singularly or collectively, that would even make them tolerable, let alone likable. They add no value to any interaction, and bring no benefit to anything. I find their very presence loathesome and all of their opinions vile. They are useless, craven, and self-centered.

  38. This story gives me some hope that women are finally starting to pay attention to reality, and dumping the feminist indoctrination – even if that indoctrination gives women an excuse to eat like a pig and turn into a fat slob. I guess women are noticing that self respect and traditional roles are valuable too.

  39. Julia, this is awful. Face-palm awful. You should truly learn what you write about before you write and then when you do put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard, you should be unstintingly honest. Let’s run through your absolute mess of an article:
    MGTOW are not male supremacists; they’re dudes who choose not to roll the dice with women in our current cultural climate. Some are bitter and really don’t like women (maybe you ought to hear them out, try to understand why) and others just choose to spend their time in other pursuits.
    MRA’s are also not male-supremacists. In fact, most of them are entirely reasonable people with well-reasoned, logical complaints. They’re basically feminists, just for men. Watch Cassie Jaye’s “The Red Pill.” Get on youtube and listen to Karen Straughan.
    Traditionalists – Your biggest face-palm here. Most trad wives and trad men do NOT discuss women as interchangeable incubators or simple sexual objects. Most simply find that sticking with gender roles produces optimal outcomes.

    • I agree. Finding a women to be your wife and sticking with her is the opposite of “interchangeable”. “Interchangeable” is hooking up with a different partner every week into your 50s.

  40. MGTOW is against conservative values. Conservatives want men to slave away at work to provide for women. You think men are happy in our gender role of priviledge that causes men to kill themselves because they cant bed enough women or make xxxxxx amount of money? The gender roles are toxic and made to keep men as worker ants.

    • WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON? Men slave away at work to provide for women? Do you live in a time warp? Women have been making their own money for decades and also providing for men. MOST WOMEN WORK FULL TIME AND WOMEN WORK HARD. Apparently you fell asleep in the 1950’s and you just woke up.

      • Women are by far taking the lions share of tax-funded public service benefits.
        Men are paying the majority of taxes by a long shot.
        Try again.

        • Arborist, your comment about women and the lions share of tax funded services are the lies the male media tells us.
          The reality is a whole lot more of our taxes go to males. For example: Men’s wars, crime (mostly male) , huge corporation bailouts for huge CEO salaries (almost all men) and also the men who run around with lots of women, get them pregnant and do not pay child support. These are just a few examples that the male run media does not like to discuss concerning where our tax dollars go.

        • Arborist, your comment that women take the lions share of tax funded services are lies.
          The reality is the lions share of tax funded services go to men. For example: Wars, crime (mostly male), big corporation bailouts for enormously huge CEO salaries (almost all male), and the men that run around with lots of women, getting the women pregnant and not paying child support. Those are a few examples of where our taxes go to that the male run media does not want to address.

  41. You seems confused Julia, but I suspect that in fact you’re cunning and manipulative:
    First you wrote that MGTOW is against marriage and don’t care about women.
    Then you call them “male supremacists” and “refusing to accept modern gener roles”.

    TRANSLATION:
    “They don’t want to be subjugated by what Julia call MODERN GENDER ROLES, and Julia thinks that women cannot survive if men don’t care about them”

    Notice: MODERN GENDER ROLES, not “FREEDOM from Gender Roles” nor “traditional gender roles”…

  42. “While these groups pursue different strategies to ‘reconquer’ male power, pride and privilege, they all share an outright hostility towards feminism, liberalism and modern gender roles.”

    First off, MGTOW and the MRM aren’t against liberalism. The implication you’re making is that these groups want to return to traditional times and that’s not true. You’re confusing conservatives with MGTOW’s and MRA’s. Not only is conservatism and MGTOW and the MRA not synonymous with each other but they’re mutually exclusive. Both MGTOW’s and MRA’s argue against common conservative talking points.

    Secondly. men never had privilege. Almost all examples of male privilege are based off of half-truths, misinformation as a result of misinterpreting statistics, cherry-picked statistics, double-edged swords, or only apply to men that are rich, white, good-looking and have high status.

  43. Funny how people improving their lives is indoctrination. The aggressive rhetoric towards the denunciation of mainstream narratives that clearly don’t work for men or women are getting exposed.

  44. Funny how people improving their lives is indoctrination. The aggressive rhetoric towards the denunciation of mainstream narratives that clearly don’t work for men or women are getting exposed.

    • Sure. Deeming themselves worthless to men except for their bodies and the sex they are “gatekeeping” is “improving” their lives. At least until their equally red pill master, err, husband leaves them for a younger woman
      Well, you know what? Many, many women, I would even say, the vast majority would rather be single than stuck with a man only interested in sex and riddled with self hatred like the red pill trad wives. Why would anybody with a certain amount of self respect ever be like that? Nothing against traditional values. To each their own. If a woman decides to stay at home with the children and to be a homemaker, it’s perfectly fine. But if they start a movement, based on their submission kink, and hating on women who make other life decisions, they are evil. Simply put.

      • Try and read up a bit more about RPS and MGTOW movement, because right now you’re only showing us you know nothing about their values

        • It shows some don’t have any understanding​ of what they are talking about. All the privileges​ like- the freedom of speech, security, this internet on which people are showing their opinion, the mobile phone/laptop etc are all creted by men(atleast 99% of them ). Naturally women don’t have any initiative to create these things. All the big organisations​, Nations were conceived by men. This again proves the statement that women evalute themselves more than what they are actually are in terms of understanding​ of things, intelligence, SMV etc.

      • You don’t have any understanding​ of what you are talking about. Dear! There is no point in arguing with you. All the privileges​ like- the freedom of speech, security, this internet on which you you are showing your opinion, the mobile phone/laptop etc are all creted by men(atleast 99% of them ). Naturally women don’t have any initiative to create these things. All the big organisations​, Nations were conceived by men. Please don’t blabber about things yiu don’t know. This again proves the statement that women evalute themselves more than what they are actually are in terms of understanding​ of things, intelligence, SMV etc.

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