At the young age of 20, Prince Karim Al-Hussaini, Aga Khan IV, became the spiritual leader of millions of Ismaili Muslims. His charities benefited a vast section of people across the globe in the form of hospitals, educational and cultural projects.
The Indian government honoured him with the Padma Vibhushan for his contributions to social development in 2015. For heritage lovers, he is best known for being the force behind the restoration of Humayun’s Tomb, a world heritage site.
In 2013, ThePrint Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta interviewed the Aga Khan on NDTV’s Walk The Talk, discussing various aspects including his philanthropic activities, the ‘clash of ignorance’, the situation in Syria, the Shia-Sunni tension, among others.
Here is a transcript of an excerpt from the interview, edited for clarity.
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I am Shekhar Gupta at the Aga Khan Academy on the outskirts of Hyderabad, and I have a very special guest today, His Highness the Aga Khan.
Aga Khan: Thank you, sir.
It’s been said about you that no human being today bridges so many divides as gracefully and as powerfully as you do. How many divides—East and West, Islam and Christianity, material and spiritual, and if I may add, from ancient to medieval to the modern and to the future. Such a special privilege to be here.
Thank you very much. I am very happy to talk with you.
Thank you. And welcome to a country which is in many ways your homeland.
Yes, yes, my grandfather’s way back.
Right. He was born in undivided India.
Yes, yes, yes he was, and the place where he was born is still there.
Still there?
Yes, still in the family.
And the first school that…
Was built on the…
Set up in Mundra.
In Mundra, yes. And it’s still there.
It’s still there? 1905 or?
1909 or something like that.
There about, yes. And now there are 80 and 90,000 students and one more.
Yes, yes.
So what’s this thing about the Aga Khan’s and education?
I think my grandfather has, and I have, always felt that education was really an essential part of a community’s life, of a country’s life, of an individual’s life. It is the unavoidable building block for all people all around the world. It doesn’t matter the age or the society. So we’ve really wanted to build with that, and this academy is part of that exercise.
So, before we get into the more profound discussion on making rational judgments in times when all wisdom is presumed to be given, tell us a little bit about the academy. How is this different from the rest?
Well, this academy was born out of an evaluation process. Some ten years ago, we got together and started asking ourselves, with my colleagues in education, where are we? What do we need? And we came to the conclusion that there were a number of countries where secondary education was a critical issue.
So, we decided that instead of trying to respond on a country-by-country basis, we would try to make a network of institutions to move intelligent children from one society to another, from one language to another, so that we would try and build global capacity and bring it in at the secondary level of education, not retard it until tertiary education or career.
And an academy like this is not limited? Access is not confined to your followers?
No, no, no, no.
Only people of one faith?
No, no, not at all.
Purely on merit?
Purely on merit, and indeed, it goes further than that because it’s means-blind. So the moment a child is qualified, it’s our responsibility to find the ability to fund that. So it’s a means-blind process.
Funnily, I haven’t heard that expression before—means-blind.
Means-blind, that is, you’re blind to the means.
I know, it’s a wonderful expression.
That’s the expression that is used.
It’s fascinating that I hear that expression from somebody who doesn’t like the word philanthropy. So explain to us why the objection to philanthropy?
Well, I think philanthropy is very close to the notion of charity.
Like giving away?
Giving away. And in Islam, it’s very clear. Charity is desirable, necessary. But the best form of charity is to enable an individual to manage his own destiny, to improve his condition of life or her condition of life so they become autonomous. They make their own decisions.
And there I remember something that you said in an interview. You said becoming an Imam doesn’t mean you distance yourself, you renounce the world. It actually means engaging with your community even more.
Right.
And to improving their quality of life and to give them protection. It doesn’t mean going away. There is no sannyas, if I may use something from the Hindu way of life.
No, and it’s not just in the Hindu way of life. It’s also in many other faiths. There are Christian schools where engaging in life is not desirable. In Islam, that doesn’t exist. It’s the contrary, actually. Imams are responsible for the security of their community, for the quality of life of their community. They must engage, but they have to engage ethically.
Also Read: Most politicians don’t have a developed system to filter out the noise—Manohar Parrikar in 2013
There is another thing you said, a fascinating statement. You said there is no clash of civilisations.
Right.
There is a clash of ignorance.
Right, right.
But the clash of ignorance or what someone else had called scars on our mind, in a different context, World War, is now a reality.
Yes.
How do you deal with it?
I have asked myself that question so many times, actually since 1957.
Since you became an Imam, at a very young age.
Yes, and I have used all the methods I thought I had to try and help bridge civilisations rather than have them continue to look at each other in ignorance and discover each other in conflict and all the rest. So it’s been an important part of my life, but I’m one individual.
And if I can take a little chance and be sort of indiscreet, in a way the Islamic world knocked at the doors of the Western world in the form of those planes slamming into the building. I’m oversimplifying.
Well, I think it would be difficult to associate what we call the Ummah, the totality of the Muslim world, with that. Right. I don’t think that would be right.
But that stereotype did get built.
That stereotype did get built, without doubt, without doubt. But I don’t think you can attribute that to the totality of the Ummah.That’s simply not correct. So the stereotype itself is massively incorrect. Right.
So has your life changed and your role since 2001, since this happened?
Yes, of course. Of course. We are trying to understand the polarisations that are occurring in our world, in the industrialised world. We are seeing that the industrialised world is no longer the industrialised world as it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
We’re seeing major powers come up on the radar screen. We’re seeing intermediate powers playing a new role, including India. So, there’s a whole process of global change now.
So what do you tell your friends in the Western world about their new stereotypes of Islam? And what do you tell your Muslim brothers and sisters and followers about their stereotypes of the Western world?
Well, I would start by asking a very simple question. In 2013, what is the definition of an educated person? What is the knowledge that that person should have? And how is that person going to use it? And the knowledge that that person requires, in my view, is more and more understanding the world, not understanding little parts of it. And I think that understanding the world is a massively complex goal, but I think that we’ve got to admit that that’s what’s necessary. It’s unavoidable. Because we are more of one world than ever before.
Because your community has also suffered, because it’s now come to be represented by people of a certain kind, people who hawk the headlines, sort of primetime TV, and whose silhouette usually has an AK-47 or worse. I mean, how do you deal with that? And how much damage have they done to your community?
I don’t think the community is seen as a community that is in any way engaged in this sort of concept.
It’s like a Muslim passport at a Western airport. Again, I’m using a stereotype, but it’s the reality.
Right, right. Well, I’m not sure that is really true of all Muslims. I think there are certain areas of the Muslim world that are questioned. But I don’t think that’s universal. Really not. And, you know, that’s happened in other faiths, let’s be quite clear.
Look at the Middle East. Egypt, with which the Ismailis have such an old relationship.
Right, right.
Where does Egypt stand now?
Well, I think what we’re…
And then next door, Syria.
This is… Well, first of all, Egypt. I tend to think, and this is a personal view, that what we’re beginning to see in the Umayyads, in these unstable situations, is the manifestation of civil society. I think we’re seeing civil society expressing itself. It’s expressing itself in different ways, in different countries. But essentially, it is the forces of civil society.
They are saying, we want an environment in which we can live freely.
So, next door to Syria now, from Egypt.
Well, Syria is, you know, a really crisis situation for so many communities. I mean, let’s first of all recognize the fact that Syria is an immensely complex social product, or civil product, if you want. And it’s been like that for centuries. It’s not new.
And so you have Christians, you have Muslims, you have Jews. Different tribes, you have Druze, you have very complex demographic makeup, first of all.
And very complex neighbours?
Yes. Very complex neighbours. Very complex neighbours. And I think that we’ve seen a certain amount of proxy presence, if I can call it that. And what I’m hoping is that, whereas the proxies up until a few days ago appeared to be unwilling to find a consensus solution, there may be some opportunity now for that to happen.
Particularly with Putin and Obama talking.
Yes. And the change in Tehran, which may be there. I think there’s some Gulf states who are beginning to become less concerned with where all this is going. So, there may be the beginning of, how would I call it, melting. The issues are not quite as rough.
Melting but not meltdown?
Not meltdown. So, I’m saying to myself, maybe we have an opportunity here, not only to solve the Syrian situation, but to do more than that. I like to be optimistic.
And then come closer home to us, Pakistan. You have such a wide network of activity there.
Yes, yes.
And it’s the one country where the Shia-Sunni conflict today is most pronounced.
Yes, yes. Well, no, I wouldn’t say it’s…
The targeting of Shias is most pronounced. Let me put it like that.
Yes.
At an ordinary level, frankly, I travel to Pakistan, I find no problem. Right, right. The Pakistani army itself hasn’t had a problem.
These tensions are much more omnipresent in the Ummah than just Pakistan, frankly. It’s far from being restricted to Syria. So, this tension is a tension of great concern to me.
And I hope that as the Syrian issue, if it does get resolved the way it’s going, will also reduce the tension in that relationship also. Because it’s unacceptable to me, frankly. It’s quite simply unacceptable.
So, do you have a message for the leaders of Pakistan?
Well…
Because it’s a very large Muslim population.
I’m not sure that I can blame this situation on the leaders of Pakistan.
I said, do you have a message, do you have advice for them?
Well, my simple message is that in any country, my view is that people have the right to practice their faith. Right. Whatever it is. So, that is, to me, a human right.
Right.
And I’m interested, for example, to see how a Western government has recently taken that issue on its agenda for economic support. Right. Such as the Canadians. Right. You know?
Yes, absolutely.
So, there is an awareness in the industrialized world that this has become a serious global problem.
Right. So, do you have a message for the Shias in Pakistan?
Well, I would have it for all Pakistanis, not just the Shia. I would have it for all Pakistanis, which is to say, look, you are Muslims, full stop. Right. And so long as you are Muslims and you abide by the basic identification of what makes a Muslim, which is the Shahada, well, that’s where it stops.
I feel sort of a little bit ashamed asking this question. Knowing how liberal and how catholic you are in your outlook and how much of a citizen of the world you are. It’s a question I cannot help asking. Why do we find that the angriest Muslims in the world come from Pakistan? Not all Pakistani Muslims, but still, if you look at the record of angry Muslims discovered around the world post 9/11, even before that, how come so many of them come from Pakistan, whereas Iraq was invaded, Afghanistan was occupied, continues to be so in many ways. Palestinians have grievances, but the angriest Muslims are in Pakistan.
I wouldn’t agree with that. I wouldn’t agree with that. I think there is anger that is in many, many Muslim countries today because I think the Ummah feels targeted and targeted essentially for 9/11.
Right.
And the Ummah as a body of millions and millions of people around the world has nothing to do with that. So I don’t think that comment is, if I may say so, is fair.
No, no, I mean, it’s wonderful if you disagree with that. It’s easy to agree with those formulations these days. But in my view, that’s really not the case. So I’m happy if you agree with me, but I’m happier if you don’t agree with me because it’s a better story, frankly. Yes. Because then we get into an argument.
No, no, I don’t.
An intellectual argument.
I don’t think that’s correct. I don’t think that’s correct. And you know, I would go further and I would say many of the conflicts we see today have got nothing to do with faith.
Right.
They are the children of political mismanagement or worse.
Or, frankly lack of intellect.
Or, lack of intellect. The driving background in many of these situations is political. But then what happens is that there’s a faith dimension which is attached to it. But it’s not born.
It comes sort of handy.
It comes handy. You can mobilize more people, you can argue the case differently.
If I may use a sort of shortcut, it’s a force multiplier. Or, a fuel.
Yes. Yes. So I tend to stand back and say, if I really analyze these situations, were the issues of faith? No. They were generally political issues. And you can take most of the issues that are there today and you can track them back to a political dimension.
As in Afghanistan. Before we get into Afghanistan, I have to say how grateful people like me are that you built this wonderful hotel in Kabul.
Thank you.
I used to cover the war when the good jihad was on in the past. And I remember Hotel Kabul as it used to be in the past. It was just a Stalinist structure. And the only reassuring thing about it was that its walls were so thick that you thought a bomb would not come through it. And I think the menu was roast chicken at lunch and chicken roast.
[Laughs] Anything we could breed in the basement.
No, I think the joke was that one of Najibullah’s cuts lost its way and hit a poultry farm. Until they finished that inventory, that’s all you’d get. But now you’ve built a great hotel. And what that makes sure of is that people other than soldiers, spies, and journalists and crooks and arms dealers visit Kabul.
Well, I remember very well, very early on, Karzai came to me and he said, ‘Look, I cannot even attempt to rebuild Afghanistan unless I have a place for people to stay.’
Right.
‘Please help us to put in place something’.
And that came with Serena [Hotel]. As in Islamabad, Peshawar.
Part of reconstruction is bringing different forces to come into the country and play their role.
Right. And you’ll be the enabler.
Well, he asked whether we would do it, and I said yes, we would do it.
Because when politics hurts, you need the apolitical touch. And there comes our favorite Imam.
You’re very kind to say that. But to us, it was a contribution to reconstruction. .
And I know that you like to reconstruct and build things which then become self-sustaining.
Right. mean, part of our institutional, let’s say, philosophy is to carry risk. We can’t do our work if we don’t carry risk. Carry risk. But what we try to avoid is that the risk becomes so severe that we jeopardise the future of an institution.
Right. Or, goes into the realm of gambling.
Absolutely. No, no, no.
See, the other thing I remember that you said someplace, and you keep saying, is that you’ve learned not to express your feelings in public if you’re unhappy.
Yes, yes.
Why the reserve?
Because I think a country, a community, an individual have to have a continuity in the way they look at things. Right. It’s very difficult to build something which is solid with a magic wand.
Right. It takes time.
It takes time. And you have to be consistent. You will have your ups and downs, but if you wander, you don’t get there.
But, you know, you have learned to keep your feelings to yourself, but I have to express gratitude for the joy and happiness you’ve brought to so many faces. Thank you. In this country and elsewhere.
Thank you.
And even the faces that will come from now on, including particularly in this academy.
Right, right. Well, I think that if people are happy; that’s part of my role.
I think you keep coming back.
Thank you very much, sir.
Your Highness, people will be happier.
Thank you very much, and thank you for this nice conversation.