Keep doing Hindu-Muslim if you want to come down to 6 seats from 182—Ram Vilas Paswan

On 10 December 1998, then-Hajipur MP spoke in the Lok Sabha on a discussion on atrocities committed on minorities in various parts of the country. 'If we learn to interpret the word 'minorities' correctly, I believe we will develop a feeling that those we are fighting against are the same blood as us.'

A YouTube screengrab | Photo: @DigitalSansadPOI | Digital Sansad - Parliament of India

The first thing is that if we learn to correctly interpret the word ‘minorities’ or ‘alpsankhyak’, I believe that 90% of this atmosphere of hatred will disappear. Who are the minority people in this country today – Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Parsis, and Jains. If we go into the history of these few minorities, none of them are foreigners. Conflict arises when the issue of native versus foreign comes up. We can understand this conflict. There was a conflict between Babur and Ibrahim Lodi. At that time, Ibrahim Lodi was on the throne of the country, and Babur invaded in 1526. One was native, and one was foreign. We can understand this conflict, but today we talk about conflicts between Hindus and Muslims. In this, who is native, who is foreign? Who is a foreigner? A foreigner is one who goes back to their own country. One who blends into the soil of a country is no longer a foreigner.

Today, there isn’t a single Englishman in India; those who were here have all gone back to their own country, so they are foreigners. But those who came to this country and engaged in building and improving it, if we go into their 500-year history, then we’ll have to go into 5000-year-old history, which would be very painful. If you go back five-six generations, for one Hindu brother, you’ll find one Muslim brother. Go to a Gujjar settlement, and for six Hindu brothers, you’ll find one Muslim brother. Go to Kashmir, where even today 90% are Muslims, but even now the title “Pandit Panna Maulana” is used together.

Where there are Jats, there are also Muslim Jats. In some places, weavers became Muslims, in others, Dalits became Muslims. Therefore, it’s wrong to say that Muslims are descendants of Babur. When such language is used, even in passion, I think it’s not right. Let’s think with a cool mind and look back seven-eight-nine-ten generations. When Babur came to this land, Ibrahim Lodi was ruling, and he wasn’t Hindu. Before him was the Khilji dynasty, before that the Tughlaq dynasty, before that the Slave dynasty, and before that Mohammad Ghori’s rule. Islamic rule has been here since 1200 AD. Today’s Christians, like Mr. Sangma here, who would tolerate if someone called them descendants of the English? Christians are tribals; 60 per cent of Christians are Dalit Christians.

Sir, the Chundur incident happened, but no one knew he was a Dalit Christian. We had gone there carrying the torch of justice. Is there even a single white Christian? All Christians are converted, either from tribals or backward classes, and some might be from upper classes too. Today we’re fighting over the notion as if Christianity is foreign here. Sikhism was established based on Kesh, Kangha, Kachha, Kirpan, and Kara. With such foundations, the eldest brother in a family became a Sikh, and the younger brother remained Hindu. Like Tohra ji, Badal ji, and Barnala sahib, they all belong to the same community, or or take Buta Singh ji, a Mazhabi Sikh. Who is foreign among them?

We saw the conflict between Hindus and Sikhs. Our house was at 12, Rajendra Prasad Road. Karpoori Thakur ji was also there, but we couldn’t save a single Sikh; somehow, we survived. I had a one-and-a-half-year-old son whom we had to throw down from the second floor. My house was burned during the Babri Masjid incident; I was locked up in Tilak Nagar police station with ten thousand Dalit people. My house was set on fire again. We come from the Dalit community. I faced a lot of abuse because of the Mandal Commission, but Ram Vilas Paswan isn’t going to benefit from it as it was for backward classes. However, there was a commitment for backward classes. We used to chant slogans for the backward classes – “Backward gets sixty out of hundred, who holds the power, English and high caste, what’s the identity of high caste, speaks gibberish does no work; what’s the identity of low caste, does work and faces insults.” This was our slogan. This is a commitment for Muslims.

Remember, until there’s commitment in the country, we should always think that if there’s a conflict between a woman and a man, even if the woman is at fault, we should support her. If there’s a conflict between an armed person and an unarmed one, even if the unarmed one is at fault, we should support them. If there’s a conflict between the public and the government, even if the public is at fault, we should support the public, because those with power commit more atrocities and those without power commit less. 

I said at the beginning that if we learn to interpret the word “minorities” correctly and act accordingly, I believe we will develop a feeling that those we are fighting against are the same blood as us. There is no difference between Naqvi and Paswan. Six or seven generations ago, we would have been children of the same parents.

Similarly, the matter between India and Pakistan is the same. Whenever it comes to Muslims, it is linked to Pakistan. Remember, the Defense Minister is not here, but we will tell him that every year we spend Rs 25,000 to 30,000 crore on weapons, and Pakistan spends about the same. Both countries’ Rs 40,000-50,000 crore are going to America. Today, there’s no Russia, only America, which gives them F-16 and tells us to take F-17. You have built an atomic bomb, if you have the courage, blow up Pakistan once, but you cannot do that. Pakistan won’t blow up India either, and an atomic bomb is never made for self-defense. No matter how much we take pride in the atomic bomb, if it falls on Islamabad, Delhi will also be wiped clean, and if it falls on Delhi, their Islamabad will also be wiped clean.

We know that neither India can eliminate Pakistan, nor Pakistan can eliminate India. In a country where out of 6 lakh villages, 2 lakh villages don’t have drinking water facilities, where there are the highest number of blind and crippled, where poverty is rampant and the problem of unemployment is terrifying, will we keep creating an atmosphere of war from both sides? And I also know that neither the citizen of India wants war nor the citizen of Pakistan wants war. When we have a stomachache, we curse Pakistan ten times, and when something happens to Pakistan, they curse India ten times. We are making fools of the public. I am talking about the government, not any party. Germany and Japan don’t have atom bombs, so does that make their veto power any less? Remember, a prosperous country wields veto power. No matter how many atom bombs we make, if our country remains weak, those bombs will have no value.

Our borders are surrounded by minorities on all sides. There are Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir, Sikhs in Punjab, Buddhists in Ladakh, and Christians in the Northeast — Mizoram, Meghalaya, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, and Tripura. Until the borders are strong, the country won’t be strong, and there will be a risk of foreigners infiltrating. And the borders will not be strong until there is a sense of trust in the hearts of minorities, until they are considered first-class citizens. We saw a very good thing in America. Advani ji also goes to America and gives speeches. In America, whether someone is of Indian origin or or a citizen of another country, they take pride in being American because the government there has not allowed them to feel that they are Hindu or Muslim. They only feel that they have equal rights in everything.

I respect Jain sahib very much. He was saying many things yesterday. I was born in a Dalit family. When Babasaheb Ambedkar was being spoken ill of, Mahatma Gandhi once said, “Look at what Ambedkar sahib says from his perspective. If you were in Ambedkar’s place, how would you feel? Think about it.” Minorities have a psychology. They try to demand their rights. It won’t be right to start weighing those rights based on the majority, saying we are 85% or that we’ve shown mercy. Remember, if the elder brother in a family tries to make the younger one feel indebted, it leads to bad results. Therefore, this thought shouldn’t come to mind that we are in the majority and we’re doing a favour to minorities.

I am glad that Advani ji clarified this yesterday. He said this isn’t a question of majority and minority; it’s a question of India’s Constitution. They have rights according to the Constitution. You take pride in the atom bomb. Isn’t Dr. Kalam’s role significant in that? When the fight for the country’s independence was going on, Khudiram Bose, who was Hindu, kissed the hangman’s noose. Sardar Bhagat Singh, who was Sikh, kissed the hangman’s noose. Ashfaqulla Khan, who was Muslim, said before kissing the noose, “The desire for martyrdom is now in our hearts, let’s see how much strength is in the executioner’s arm.”

I did not want to mention this incident, but I have to. When I was the Railway Minister, during an inauguration, Abdul Hamid’s wife came and asked for a favour. She said, “Please get me a second-class pass because I need to travel to a station and do not have money for the ticket.” I said, “Mother, we’re ruling on your strength and you want just a second-class pass?” When I asked what her children were doing, she said she had two children, one had passed matric and the other worked as a peon in the post office. He gets work for 10 days a month and sits at home for the other 20 days. I immediately ordered an AC first-class pass for her and said she could live comfortably for the rest of her life, and also arranged jobs for both her sons in the railway.

I want to tell all my colleagues that no one can do politics by inciting Hindus and Muslims against each other or by riding on the shoulders of Muslims. Politics is done to strengthen the country, not to divide it into pieces. Politics cannot be based solely on Hindu-Muslim, caste, or religion. We see in the field of arts that Mohammad Rafi or Mukesh or Suraiya or Noor Jehan or Lata Mangeshkar or Asha Bhosle are no less than anyone. In sports, Azharuddin, Gavaskar, and the new star Sachin are no less than anyone. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru worked with Gandhiji, but Maulana Azad also worked with them. Therefore, religion should not be dragged into everything.

Honourable Chairman, here the topic of Hindu religion comes up repeatedly, but I don’t want to enter that debate because our brothers sitting on that side are more educated; they are Sanskrit and Vedas scholars, we have fewer on our side. We haven’t read the word ‘Hindu’ anywhere in the Vedas. Two Ramayanas were written — one by Valmiki and the other by Tulsidas. In both Ramayanas, the word ‘Hindu’ is not mentioned anywhere. I’m ready to face any punishment if you can show me the word ‘Hindu’ mentioned in the Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, or Mahabharata. Here, tolerance was talked about, but Hindutva keeps coming up in everything. When the word ‘Hindu’ itself doesn’t exist, where did Hindutva come from? In our childhood, we studied in ninth grade that some foreigners came to Sindhu (Indus) and they started calling it Hindu. The word ‘Hindu’ originated from ‘Sindhu’. Who are you fighting all this for? Suppose today a Hindu nation is declared, who will get what? Aren’t our Prime Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee Hindu? Weren’t the previous prime ministers Hindu? Aren’t our President, Vice President, Leader of the House Hindu? On the other side, take for example Orissa Chief Minister Shri Naveen Patnaik, West Bengal Chief Minister Shri Jyoti Basu, Bihar Chief Minister Smt. Rabri Devi and Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Kalyan Singh…

I was saying that except for Jammu and Kashmir’s Chief Minister Dr. Farooq and Punjab’s Chief Minister Shri Badal, all other state chief ministers are Hindu, so what is the benefit of calling it a Hindu nation? Remember, if water is cold for a Muslim, it is cold for a Hindu too. If a Hindu burns in fire, a Muslim burns too. Just as water and fire have no religion, a nation also has no religion. A nation is neither Hindu nor Muslim. A nation has one job — to ensure the welfare of its people, to provide them with livelihood. Only those who don’t have economic issues raise slogans of religion and caste. In this country, the issue of religion and caste can work only once. The permanent issue for people is economic development and providing employment. We implemented the Mandal Commission. At that time, we thought that the Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, Backward Classes, and minorities, making up 85 percent, would come with us, and all power would be with us. But we came down from 140 to 6. Similarly, if you also want to come down to 6 by chanting religious slogans, then keep doing Hindu-Muslim.

This is part of ThePrint’s Great Speeches series. It features speeches and debates that shaped modern India.