AGP chief and former Assam CM Prafulla Mahanta threatens to walk out of NDA if BJP goes ahead with the citizenship bill.
Asom Gana Parishad chief and former Assam chief minister Prafulla Mahanta spoke to ThePrint’s Editor-in-Chief and Chairman Shekhar Gupta on NDTV’s weekly show Walk The Talk about the contentious NRC issue, alliance with BJP and the secular image of India.
Here is the detailed transcript, edited for clarity:
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I am Shekhar Gupta in a piece of land in Lutyens Delhi which I could describe as a little slice of Assam — a little park behind Assam Bhawan. My guest today is Prafulla Mahanta, former chief minister more than once, a revolutionary student leader, and a partner of BJP. So you are in Delhi now and in some ways relaunching the movement. You have a seminar, you are bringing back the old ideas. I thought the movement has now attained its purpose and should be folded up because NRC process has been gone through. Where is the problem?
Prafulla Mahanta: The problem is that first the Citizenship Amendment Bill, 2016, they placed it before the Parliament.
SG: BJP?
PM: BJP. Probably you know that, you were also at that time in Guwahati when the Assam movement started, and lot of people we lost them. More than 855 people lost their lives in the hands of the paramilitary forces and due to the…
SG: And also in the elections in ’83, nearly 7,000 died in the massacres.
PM: Yeah in the massacre. And in the north Kamrup district, a lot of our sisters… they faced the atrocities of our Army, Indian Army, at that time. And now Assam Accord was signed…
SG: You signed it in 1985…
PM: … and we were also involved in different phases. And as per provisions of the Assam Accord, people who entered Assam after 24 March, 1971, they should be detected, deleted, and deported from our country India.
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SG: You know Prafulla, this is Delhi. You have to speak a little louder, otherwise nobody will listen to you.
PM: The Assam Accord was signed on 15 August in 1985. And as per provisions of the Assam Accord, the foreigners who entered illegally in our country, mainly north-east, Assam, they should be detected, deleted from the voter list and they should be deported from our country.
SG: Mainly in Assam, in the north-east but not north-east Assam…
PM: Yeah. Problem is that this bill placed by the present government is going to hamper the main spirit of the Assam Accord. Because as per provisions of the accord, people who entered Assam after 24 March, 1971 from Bangladesh should be deported. Now, this new amendment is going to welcome the minority people of Bangladesh.
SG: Minority people of Bangladesh are the majority people of India – Hindus.
PM: But our country is a secular country. Citizenship should not depend upon the religion. Therefore, we oppose it because it is going to lose the main character of the Assam Accord.
Shekhar: So how does it violate the spirit of the Assam Accord? Tell a generation that knows nothing about the Assam Accord.
PM: Because as per provisions of the Assam Accord, we are on the base of secularism which is the spirit of our country, that India is a secular country. And therefore, every person, he may be Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Buddhist, if he is a citizen of India, he has a right to stay here. But the same right is not with us, if we are going to stay in Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Tripura or in Jammu and Kashmir. And all are living there peacefully. But probably you know about S.L. Shakdhar, former chief election commissioner. When he convened a meeting of the election officers of the districts, then by-election was about to start and electoral rule revision was going on. And he stated that lots of the names of the illegal migrants, infiltrators were put in the electoral role. And it should be deleted. We were then in AASU and started the Assam agitation suspending 20 demands. And on the basis of this statement, we suspended the other demands and started the movement that foreigners should be detected, deleted and they should be deported. It started on 8 June, 1979. And it was a long struggle.
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SG: The rest is history. But then the accord that you signed with Rajiv Gandhi that said all those who are not proven to be citizens in the NRC process after they get their chances will be taken off electoral rolls and then deported or whatever irrespective of whether they are Hindu or Muslim.
PM: The cut-off date was 24 March, 1971.
SG: Because 25 was the crackdown. Pakistan Army crackdown in Bangladesh. So as I understand this, the spirit was that we know that almost 80% of the refugees that came from Bangladesh or East Pakistan were Hindus. The spirit was that Bangladesh should take them back.
PM: Yes.
SG: But did Bangladesh take them back?
PM: No. India did not take up the issue with the Bangladesh government up till now. Because before last year, about two years past, we attended a conference of the Awami League in Dhaka. Myself and one of the vice-presidents of the BJP, from Rajya Sabha opposition leader Ghulam Nabi Azad and members of the…
SG: Who was there from the BJP?
PM: I forgot his name. He is a vice-president. And CPI, CPM. And former Mizoram chief minister Zoramthanga because he took training in Chittagong… so they have a link. And like attend the meeting.
SG: In fact, MNF camps were in Chittagong hill… and these people were chased by Indian Air force.
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PM: And then Bangladesh prime minister invited us for dinner and exchange of views. Then we asked the question to the prime minister. Do you know (about) the presence of your citizens in Assam which is hampering the interest of our country — they try to take political rights by including their names in the electoral rolls. She said, ‘no the Government of India did not inform us of anything’. And then we took up the issue with the present prime minister also. But as per our report, up until now nobody has taken up the issue…
SG: So as I understand, if this Citizenship Bill amendment goes through, that means Hindus who are not qualified to be on the NRC will automatically get citizenship.
PM: In NRC also, this is a draft, final NRC…
SG: But you know (in) the final NRC those Hindus who do not feature, who do not qualify, will be given citizenship if this bill passes.
PM: Yes. This is a dangerous thing for the people of Assam because then we are going to lose our culture, our language and our political right also because in different constituencies they will be the majority.
SG: So you are not bothered whether it’s Bengali Muslims or Bengali Hindus who outnumber you. You don’t want to be outnumbered by Bengalis of Bangladesh origin.
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PM: No, you are right on one point. Point is that the national language of Bangladesh is Bengali. And therefore everybody speaks in Bengali language. And he may be Hindu, he may be Muslim or he may be from other religions. Therefore, somebody may make hue and cry that we are against Bengalis but this is not correct. Their language is Bengali, it’s a national language. They entered our area without valid documents and therefore we oppose their entry.
SG: But you are protecting your culture, ethnicity and language?
PM: Yeah
SG: But look at your own district, the whole Nagaon area. Muslims there all speak Assamese.
PM: Yeah they speak Assamese.
SG: Even of East Pakistan origin, because they started coming in 1920s.
PM: Yeah they speak Assamese and they consider Assamese as their mother tongue.
SG: Even Nellie is part of the same general area because people connect with Nellie.
PM: Yeah they also belong to same area. But if this bill is passed and the Government of India is going to welcome them with a red carpet, then the indigenous people of Assam will become a minority. And this is a problem for indigenous people in Assam. And Assamese people, they absorbed people from East Pakistan. When India was divided, lots of East Pakistani people entered Assam. This is the old Assam. And then Gopinath Bordoloi at that time, he opposed it saying ‘we are not going to settle all the people here’. Then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru wrote a letter to Bordoloi that ‘if you don’t want to absorb them here then we will be going to cut your finances’.
SG: So he had no choice. Prafulla, now you say that this citizenship amendment bill is not acceptable. I also don’t know how this is constitutionally sustainable, frankly, because the Constitution cannot let India distinguish between citizens because India is not a religious state. Only one country in the world does it, isn’t it?
PM: Yeah, Israel, they confer the citizenship on the basis of religion.
SG: Anybody with a Jewish ancestry can come and claim the citizenship. You don’t like that?
PM: We don’t like that. India is a secular country. And not on the basis of religion should citizenship be conferred to them. In the world, there are a lot of Muslim countries. The allegation arises sometimes that in India also Muslims are becoming victims in different areas. Will any country will give a call that all the Muslims of India should come in our country? No one.
SG: So why is India giving a call that all the Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists can come?
PM: Bangladesh became independent due to the mercy of India. And therefore Indian government should build pressure on them that the minority people living in Bangladesh should be given protection if they are in a vulnerable position. And they must enjoy equal rights with the Muslims in Bangladesh.
SG: But Parafulla, Sushma Swaraj just made a statement in Parliament that the Hindu population in Bangladesh is going up, not coming down.
PM: No, this is not correct. Their population is coming down. And therefore we asked the government also that those are minorities. As we provide safeguards to the minority people of India, let Bangladesh also provide safeguards to them.
SG: So if the government persists with this amendment, what will you do?
PM: We are going to oppose it because our country is a democratic country and we are going to oppose it democratically. And after that, let us see. Somebody may approach the Supreme Court also, high court also.
SG: But you are a member of the coalition with BJP. You can’t oppose the government of which you are a part. You have three ministers in this cabinet.
PM: No. The decision, if they are going to make it a law, then the understanding would not be continued.
SG: Then alliance will not continue?
PM: The alliance will not continue.
SG: So if they amend this law, you will break the alliance with BJP.
PM: Yeah certainly.
SG: And what about the other partners, the Bodo parties?
PM: They are undecided up till now. But we are going to discuss with them also, our party is going to discuss with them.
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SG: But what is the position they have taken publicly as yet, the Bodo party?
PM: They not declared their opposition up till now formally. But informally they are not going to support it. MP Biswajit Daimary…
SG: He speaks very good Hindi in fact, unlike you.
PM: Right, he speaks Hindi fluently.
SG: And he opposed it.
PM: He opposed it.
SG: So does this mean that if BJP pushes with this amendment they risk the fall of Assam government?
PM: It is difficult to give you an exact answer. But a lot of BJP MLAs are also not happy.
SG: Also not happy. A lot of BJP MLAs are your MLAs. They stole your entire party. Or you lost your entire party. Chief minister, finance minister, everybody.
PM: Yeah, that’s right. Correct.
SG: So Prafulla, what’s it like for you? it’s a new experience. You were the uncrowned king of Assam. You could blow the whistle and all of Guwahati would come out. Then you became chief minister more than once. You swept elections. All this public sympathy, support, affection… Today you are a junior partner. What went wrong with your party and movement?
PM: The problem is that last election was polarised. And was divided between Hindu and Muslim. This is the main reason. And our party also decided to oppose the Congress. We had no alternative at that time. We had to go for an alliance with the BJP.
SG: But you then became part of the polarisation.
PM: We had no choice at that time because we wanted the Congress to go from power in Assam. Because they have taken a lot of anti-Assam decisions. And therefore, we wanted that Congress should be out of power. And for that purpose we supported the BJP. But BJP’s recent three decisions have harmed the interests of the people of Assam.
SG: Which three? One is this amendment bill.
PM: First is that before elections, they hoist the national flag in Assam. That means the India-Bangladesh border… That not a single inch of land of our territory will be handed over to Bangladesh. But after the formation of the government, they first handover the land of Assam.
SG: They exchanged the enclaves. I support that by the way.
PM: But more land given to them, not only exchanged. Second, the prime minister also announced in the election campaign that after 16 May the Bangladeshi people must quit this area and they must be ready with their bag and baggage. But after that, the central government brings the amendment bill in the floor of the house — that they are going to confer the citizenship instead of sending them back to Bangladesh. And on the other side, for the development of the north-east region, they had promised that they are going to implement Assam Accords rightly. But up till now they have not taken any initiative to implement the Assam Accord. Constitutional safeguards also…
SG: That is the third thing?
PM: Third thing
SG: So what happens when you talk to the BJP? Do they talk to you?
PM: They agreed.
SG: No but now do you take it up with them?
PM: At a party level we take it up with the BJP government here. We meet the honourable home minister. And prime minister also. We express our views.
SG: When did you last meet the prime minister?
PM: Prime minister? We met four months ago.
SG: And what did he say to you?
PM: He showed a keen interest to solve the problem of Assam. According to him, he always wants that Assam should be developed, it should be a prosperous state.
SG: Other BJP allies led by Uddhav Thackeray, who says that allies are not shown respect… And he is very impatient and says that he will break away. Do you share his impatience?
PM: Yes. Not only I share with him, our party also exchanges views with them, with him.
SG: You have spoken with Shiv Sena?
PM: Yeah. So informally I speak to them. And formally our party president and other organisation president, they meet Uddhav.
SG: So come 2019, now it’s about 10 months from today, where do we see AGP fighting? By itself? With BJP? Or who knows with Congress?
PM: The panchayat election we are going to fight alone. But in case of parliamentary election, we have not decided, our party has not decided. And our party is going to convene a meeting on 10 August to discuss about the foreigner issue problem.
SG: But what bearing will the government’s insistence on the Citizenship Amendment Bill have on your decision to fight alongside them in 2019?
PM: No if they are trying to pass the bill on the floor of the house then there is no alternative for the AGP to go fight alone. And you know that AGP has not a single representative in the floor of the Parliament. Therefore, the MPs except Biswajit Daimary, others didn’t utter a single word… to protect the interests of Assam.
SG: But tell me of the 40 lakh people who have not made the cut in the first draft, how many are Hindus approximately by your estimate?
PM: Very difficult to…
SG: But you have been chief minister thrice. You have an idea. Give us a broad idea.
PM: But names of local people also, the Indian people, have also been struck. Therefore, it’s very difficult.
SG: But still. Generally, 50-50, 30-40 per cent? What percent?
PM: Maybe like 50-50.
SG: So about half of these are Hindu. So if tomorrow the amendment takes place, then half the problem is solved. Tell me practically, in India, forget Hindus, I mean this is a subcontinent. Bangladesh is a sovereign country. Can you push anybody away in a sovereign country particularly when it’s a friendly country?
PM: Let them start the negotiations with them. Let the Government of India express their views to the counterpart. But not up till now. Not a single word uttered.
SG: Do we have a message for Sarbananda Sonowal?
PM: If they are not able to implement the provisions of the Assam Accord, they should better come back.
SG: Come back? To you?
PM: Not me. To the party.
SG: Same thing.
PM: Otherwise, they have an alternative. One alternative is that they must dedicate their time for the development of Assam and implement the Assam border. If they are going to fail on two sides, then what’s the necessity to stay there. They should come back.
SG: And for Himanta, you have a message? Because he is the most visible face.
PM: He is very intelligent and probably he will be taking his own decisions at an appropriate time.
SG: And what’s your future now? Are you back to the fight now?
PM: Yeah certainly. We are going to fight for the interest of Assam and society.
SG: Do you have a message for Mr Modi and Mr Amit Shah?
PM: They must respect the partners of the alliance. And the promise which they have given to the people of Assam at the time of the election, we want that they should try to fulfill. This is the message for him. And the secular image of India should be kept.
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SG: And this Citizenship Amendment Bill will destroy it? You will not accept it?
PM: Yeah, we will not accept it. And we request them that it should not be passed on the floor of the house.
SG: You know the world is a very strange place. And history is very strange. When you were running the agitation all the secular forces in the country said you were a front for RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) and you were anti-Muslim. And today you are taking a position against your own government for secularism.
PM: Yes, we are fighting for secularism. At the time of the Assam movement, few section of people tried to blame us.
SG: In fact, the Left most of all.
PM: Yeah. I request Mamata Banerjee to prepare a NRC for West Bengal also. And other states of our country should follow the pattern of Assam. Because preparation of NRC is as per the direction of the Supreme Court. And it gives the directions about how it should be prepared. And government should take an initiative to give free and fair NRC.
SG: Well Prafulla, all I’ll say is that one state right now is good enough or bad enough if you are able to go through the process. Sometimes it’s better to let lying ghosts lie. But now that these have been awakened, let us see where it goes. And it’s interesting to see that your politics is also coming back to life. Thank you very much.
This interview was transcribed by Achyut Mishra and edited by Amit Upadhyaya. Watch the full interview on NDTV here.
Religion as the basis for citizenship was the guiding principle for Partition. A lot less in India than in Pakistan. That chapter is now closed. Difficult to see how the apex court could uphold in 2018 the constitutional validity of a law that confers citizenship on migrants because they are Hindus – this Sikhs, Christians, etc is simply a fudge – and denies it to others similarly placed because they are Muslims.