New Delhi: With the BJP forming a government in Delhi after a 27-year gap by defeating the Aam Aadmi Party, the capital’s political landscape has dramatically shifted. The Congress, on the other hand, has won zero seat for three assembly elections now.
This crushing defeat marks yet another blow for the Congress, highlighting its declining influence in a city it once ruled for 15 consecutive years. In this context, we take you back to a candid conversation between Shekhar Gupta and former Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit on ‘Walk the Talk’ in 2017.
They discuss the Congress party’s shortcomings, its fading connection with the electorate, and what it would take to regain its political relevance.
Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I’m Shekhar Gupta and my guest today, somebody who would not mind using one adjective about you, the wise, old leader of the Congress Party. Old in many ways.
Sheila Dikshit: I like ‘wise’, but I don’t like ‘old’.
SG: I mean ‘old’ in many senses … Not ‘old’ in the sense of age. But ‘old’, somebody who connects with the party’s roots and the very glorious past.
SD: Yeah. Well, thank you very much.
SG: Is it all over now?
SD: No, I don’t know. In life, when there are full stops … they are very necessary. So, I’m not seeking anything. But if I’m asked to take on a responsibility, I will not shy away from it, provided I feel I am up to it.
SG: But you were asked to take one the other day, to go to UP, and then what happened? It’s like taking a commander into war and the army comes back.
SD: No, well, some decision was taken about Gathbandhan, you know, getting together, alliances and all that. And in that alliance, my face was supposed to be the chief minister’s face. You know, seeing the work in Delhi and all. And also, the fact that I belonged to UP originally.
Yes, the caste element must have been there also. I don’t normally consider myself just a Brahmin. But yes, probably. And a woman also. So, it went off very well, you know. It was well received, and we were getting a sense of going up and up, and confident more confident. Suddenly, this happened, and I don’t really know why it happened. But rumours started that there was going to be this alliance with Akhilesh. So, a week, ten days before, I was in an interview when I said that if there was an alliance like that, I would like to step out because you can’t have two chief ministerial candidates. But when you look back on it, I don’t think it was a wise decision because we came down to seven seats. That was what was very disturbing. With that, the way we were going, we were hoping we would get nearly 50, 70, 60. The way it was going, it was going very well, when we were campaigning. Not just me campaigning, I was campaigning, and Raj Babbar was there also. It was going off well. We seemed to be connecting with the people.
SG: Certainly, you think you would have got more than seven?
SD: Yes, yes. Certainly.
SG: So, why did it come down to seven? Because, after all, this was a strong alliance with Akhilesh.
SD: I think the last few days that the prime minister spent in UP, particularly in Banaras and Azamgarh and all that area, I think lifted the BJP up. It didn’t look like that before that, much before that. It looked like, yes, in certain parts, BJP will be there, [and in] certain parts, the Congress and this alliance will be there. And Akhilesh was looking very confident also. Despite the fact that there was this family feud, which people perceived as something not very good. But, I think, that’s when Mr. Prime Minister arrived and spent so much time there.
SG: Did the alliance become negative for Congress?
SD: I don’t think it was a negative, in the sense that the word negative is used. I think it was just a step to take it forward and to see that we win more seats. With the alliance, there was an impression, there was a feeling, there was probably also a feedback, saying that the alliance will help.
SG: But, why did it not work, seven seats? But there’s also an impression that the alliance made Congress look like a very minority party, only angling for Muslim votes.
SD: No, I don’t think we gave that impression, certainly not. And I don’t think we felt that impression because remember, side by side with this, Rahul carried on a Kisan yatra. It went off very well. I was in one or two of them. The Khat Sabha, Khat Pe Charcha … was really very, very enthusiastic. It was very, full of fervour and all. I don’t know, somehow, sometimes, I feel that maybe, you know, it was not in our ‘qismat (destiny)’ to get this sort of thing. So, we took decisions, which later on proved to be not the right decisions. One of those was this alliance.
SG: And where did it leave you? I mean, you were to not look like a decoy.
SD: No, I agree with you there, but it didn’t matter to me personally very much because frankly, I had gone there not because I wanted to go there, or I was seeking something, but I felt that if I could be of any help to the party for its revival in UP, I offered to go there. It took me a month or two to say yes or no. Yes, so, I did go, but when I felt that there was no point staying there, I just gave it up.
SG: And you figured that on your own or were you told that this alliance was being announced?
SD: No, nobody told me. I figured it out on my own, and I could see which direction we were moving in.
SG: Nobody said to you, ‘Sheila ji, I’m sorry, we planned this.’
SD: No, no, nobody said that to me, and I didn’t expect it. I didn’t want them to reach that point. I’m somehow a bit of a sensitive person. So, I said, let me make a decision. After all, I’m also a leader there. Let me make a decision, instead of making them go through the embarrassment of telling me, ‘no, now it’s over.’
SG: So, when you said, ‘it’s over, and I’m coming back,’ did they say anything to you?
SD: No, nobody said anything. They never said, let it be. They didn’t say anything at all.
SG: Is that typical of the Congress party? Not saying anything at all to its own leaders?
SD: Probably, maybe. This, I experienced, for the first time. It’s never been there before. I’ve never had this opportunity. I can talk from my personal point of view that yes, I’m told that people are told, ‘no, you cannot be this or you cannot be that’ or ‘we have to shift you here or there’. That’s done. But in my case, nothing of the sort happened.
SG: But, do you think some communication would be better?
SD: I think it’s better. It’s better for the dignity of the person you are either putting in or removing.
Number two, it leads to a better understanding of the whole thing. But this sort of nicety is becoming less and less relevant in politics these days. I think in all politics, not just Congress’s.
SG: Sheila ji, what is left of the Congress’s politics?
SD: Oh, no, no, no. I won’t agree with you there.
SG: You came from 200-odd to 44. And since then, it’s declined, declined, declined. Punjab apart.
SG: Yes, I agree with you there. But I’m not going to give up, and I don’t think the Congress will give up, and I don’t think the country will give up on the Congress either. Because, please remember, the Congress has a very glorious history. Not only the freedom struggle, that is over with now, but even the building up of the Congress in the last 60-70 years.
SG: The Congress has had a glorious history. It has a disastrous present. And nothing in the future promises a turnaround. You know, you have your party men leaving—including young, faithful, hardworking people, like your own party chief in Delhi, former party chief, Arvind Singh Lovely. You mentored him in his very young years.
SD: Yes, but I would say that they are being not patient with … See, one thing, one must learn in politics, if you want to really be a good politician and a politician who is a contributor also, and people also understand it, you are not in politics for yourself, you are there because you believe that you want to serve your country. That’s the way I look at it, anyway, and my generation looks at it. Now to jump from one party to another because of an opportunity, and you’ve had plenty of opportunities here. At a young age, Mr. Lovely became a minister, at a young age he became a DPC (Delhi party chief).
SG: But what is the reason? Are these people only leaving because of greed? Or are they also feeling left out in the party? Or are they feeling hopeless or demoralised?
SD: I think they are going for their personal reasons. It’s really selfishness. You can’t even wait for two-three years for a party that has done so much for you. And the Congress party has a history of revival so many times. After Indira ji’s death, after Lal Bahadur Shastri’s death, after Nehru’s death, after Vajpayee government and all, it comes back, it’s not bad. But if you don’t have the patience, and you are not a seasoned politician, you take these short routes.
SG: Seasoned politician? Who can be more seasoned? Even more seasoned than you. Mr. S.M. Krishna?
SD: But S.M. Krishna, I don’t know, why he did it. I really don’t understand this thing. Unless, of course, there is sometimes a moment when you feel that you are being denigrated for no rhyme or reason. Denigrated for what you have done, not recognition … courteous behavior has to develop in every political party.
SG: So, is some of that courteous behavior missing, you said, generally in politics? But is it all missing in the Congress party?
SD: It is missing, I must say that. I must admit that. Otherwise, people wouldn’t leave the way they are. You may not be a chief minister, you may not be a minister after a while, but you do happen to be an important member of the party. So, just give him that kind of respect.
SG: Have you received sufficient respect?
SD: No, I am afraid I have not in this past year or so. Year or two years. That is why I announced myself, ‘I will not be campaigning.’
SG: Even when you were dragged out, dragged with your hands to campaign in UP?
SD: No, then, of course, I went there on my own. I must tell you, they convinced me. And I felt that it was my duty if I could be of help.
SG: When they convinced you, what did they say to you? Did they say great things to you, like, ‘Sheila ji, you are the only one we have in UP.’
SD: No, no, no, no, nothing like that. That’s not the language. No, no, it’s not like that. It happens. There are those who say it. But it wasn’t like that. I did it. And I said, ‘Yes, I will go ahead if I can be of any help.’ And I did it. But what happened in Delhi in the recent MCD elections is that it became a kind of a one-man show. And also the outreach that should be there with any political … One-man show—the PCC president (Ajay Maken). It became his show and all that. So, he didn’t ask anybody. At least, he didn’t ask me anything.
SG: And the party leadership didn’t ask you? Mrs. Gandhi or Rahul?
SD: No, no, nobody. And I don’t think, expect, Rahul or Mrs. Gandhi to interfere in an MCD poll. They don’t say anything.
SG: This was an important poll. This was not just a municipal poll.
SD: No, no, it was important. All polls are important. But remember that this is there. I never said anything to them and so, they never said anything to me.
SG: So, this is a state where you drew a blank after ruling it for 15 years. And each time, with a higher majority. So, Dr. Harsh Vardhan said that I am happier that Congress has begun to recover because Congress is a more civilised party. Would you return the compliment between the Aam Aadmi Party and BJP or would you reserve it?
SD: Well, I can say one thing that Harsh Vardhan is a very civilised person.
SG: So, in comparison with Kejriwal?
SD: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
SG: So, Kejriwal is not somebody you will put very high on politically civilised etiquette.
SD: No, no, I wouldn’t. Not so far.
SG: Sheila ji, something that I hear from almost everybody who has left, everybody prominent and material, not those who are immaterial, who’ve left the Congress party recently, in the past year or so, year-and-a-half. And something that I hear from many others in whispers or what we call off the record, there is a lack of connect or lack of communication, lack of access to Rahul Gandhi.
SD: I wouldn’t say that. It may take more than two days, sometimes it may take a week. But, I don’t think he shies away from anybody, and he’s very warm. And, I think, this is a question we should put to his organisers, his secretaries and all. Why can’t you manage time better than that?
SG: But will you tell him to manage time better?
SD: I would certainly like to. I’ve said it earlier also. We’d like to meet you more often because we’d like to interact with your point of view before we announce our point of view. So, the Congress has always been a kind of a collective leadership. And that I think needs to be revived.
SG: I know that defeat is an orphan. But the AICC office is now like crows speaking.
SD: Yeah, that’s true. I agree with you there. We feel distressed about it. Yes, just everybody takes it. I, through your, this thing, would suggest to Rahul ji that when Mrs. Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi took over, she used to spend about two-three hours in the AICC. Every day, she used to go there. In the morning, 11 to 1, or whatever it was. I think if Rahul ji could start this, you know, and therefore become accessible to all who come, the whole place will start buzzing. It needs a leader like him to buzz the whole place up.
SG: Because, with 44 MPs, maybe 45, because you won one seat in Madhya Pradesh, with 45 MPs, you can’t afford to run your party from home.
SD: No. I think you should, I would suggest this, and I am saying this to you in your programme that I hope the word reaches him that he must spend some time with the AICC. Because that is a kind of a Mecca for all congressmen coming from all over the country. And if they come there and find it absolutely desolate, and nobody is there, naturally, they go back disappointed.
SG: So, something that Sharad Pawar told me is that he had a long meeting with Rahul and he found him very focused, very hard-working, very sincere, listening to him. And he said, ‘I asked him that you work very hard, then where do you disappear?’ So, he said, ‘I work very hard, then I go on my breaks overseas to meet my friends, my old friends.’ And he (Pawar) said, ‘I told him that one, you should make these breaks shorter. Second, you should let people know where you are going. Why should they think it is a mystery where you are going?’ Is that good advice from Uncle Pawar?
SD: Personally, I feel this is kind of, it’s a very personal advice. I want to go away for a week. No, you should go away for only three days.
SG: No, it’s not a week. Your Punjab team was waiting for names to be announced for three weeks. And they were all complaining, nobody would dare to complain in public, but they were all complaining.
SD: Yes, I know they were complaining, I know that. But they must also understand that everybody has a style. Get used to his style and start working accordingly.
SG: Should everybody get used to his style or should he change his style?
SD: No, no, I think people should also get used to … I have a style, you have a style. Whatever, everybody has a style, you know, everybody. So, please let it be. Yes, you feel that something drastic…
SG: But you find no substance, no weight in Sharad Pawar’s advice.
SD: No, no, no, no, his advice is good, good advice. But it’s for the person to whom the advice is given, for him to accept it or not. Give him that freedom. ‘I want it,’ or ‘I don’t want it.’
SG: But have you ever tried to give this advice?
SD: No, no, I have never tried to do it because I have been lucky enough to meet him whenever I would like to. Maybe Sharad didn’t have that sort of time frame. But this thing, I have never felt it. And I personally feel that every leader, every human being, every politician, every media person, like you, have to have their own style.
SG: Does he have sufficient leader-like qualities already, or does he have to bark on it?
SD: No, he has got leadership qualities, he has inherited them also, he has seen it all his life, so he has the qualities. What he is trying to do and is his right to do, is trying to change the leadership quality in changing times. India is not what it was ten, fifteen, even twelve years ago. It is different now. So he’s trying to change it to that, and I don’t think we should judge him [for] that at all.
SG: But he hasn’t been successful yet?
SD: How would you say he has not been successful? Okay, we’ve lost some. You never know, the next five elections we may win. We also feel that we have a long way to go.
SG: It doesn’t look like that. So, something you would want him to change or nothing?
SD: No, no, no, I would like him to change his accessibility. I would like him to be more accessible. He is accessible, but then you know, it’s sort of not consistent. The reason why I suggested that he sit there, so everybody in the country knows.
SG: People like Himanta Biswa Sharma, Congress loyalist, he’s not winning all of the North East for the BJP. Jagan Mohan Reddy. These are people who should not have lost, should not have lost.
SD: But we lost not because of Rahul Gandhi, we lost because of the atmosphere.
SG: For whatever reason, the party has to, the defeated army has to keep its ranks together.
SD: Yes, yes, it has to keep its ranks together. It has to innovate above all. What are the circumstances, what were the circumstances yesterday, may not be today. Not two days are alike or anything. So, all that, I entirely agree with you there.
SG: As they say in military science, skills of a general are best exhibited in organising an orderly retreat.
SD: We are not in a retreat.
SG: You are in a retreat because you have suffered defeats. That’s a retreat, you have to organise it, keep your ranks together.
SD: Yes, we are not going to be in a retreat. We will come back, and I am quite sure that very, well, shouldn’t say soon, but soon enough, people will realise what this government has done and what the, you know, the Congress government did, or has been doing for this country. After all, the shape of this country, apart from what they are wanting to change here is what has been there done by the Congress.
SG: Sheila ji, coming back to Delhi, we know that Delhi has a peculiar system of governance. How did you manage for 15 years in the same system? Not all 15 were Congress party [at Centre].
SD: No, there was Atal Bihari Vajpayee in the beginning. In the beginning, first 4-5 years, Atal Bihari. We managed because, look, there is an interest in Delhi, both of the central government and the local government. So, Delhi is the capital of this country. Every central government would like to be proud of this city also, because it’s the capital of their country. So, I used that sentiment or that feeling or that desire and, every time, I needed something, I used to go to either Dr. Manmohan Singh when he was there, or Atal Bihari ji or the Home Minister of Delhi.
SG: But, there was never this confrontation with the NDA on power? Did you feel like you were powerless?
SD: Suresh Prabhu was there when we did power privatisation. Metro was brought here when Atal Bihari ji was there. So, we brought all these things. CNG was brought here.
SG: So this confrontation was uncalled for?
SD: It’s not called for, not when you are in governance.
SG: And, who is more to blame in this, Kejriwal or the central government?
SD: I think it’s Kejriwal more than anything. He must understand his limitations or the circumference within which he has to work. If he understands that, it’s not difficult because as I said, there is a vested interest of the central government, whoever it may be, to have Delhi do well. Yes.
SG: So, will you now have advice for Kejriwal?
SD: Oh my God, I don’t think I am the one who can give him any advice. I don’t think there is anybody who can give him advice.
SG: But if he listens to you for five minutes, if you were to be the be Bhishma Pitama with him.
SD: With him, yes. First, let him listen. And let him ask what to do and what not to do.
SG: Let him listen. It’s up to him. Tell him what to do.
SD: No, no. I won’t tell him. I don’t think I am so great that I can make Kejriwal understand.
SG: But you are saying that he has lost a lot of goodwill now.
SD: Yes, he has. Certainly, he has lost a lot of goodwill. He came with a lot of goodwill and a lot of hope.
SG: So much that your party thought it could defeat him without even having you campaign in Delhi.
SD: That’s true. Did you ever tell anybody, why are you telling me?
SD: No, no. Why should I? Do what you have to do now that you have come to me. I didn’t tell you to come to me.
SG: No, you didn’t. I came after you. Thank you very much, Sheila ji. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. I think if Congress people meet you once a day, at least in a week, they’ll feel more enthused. Because when I meet Congress people now, they are all with their hangdog expressions. I tell them, you are like the Indian Army must have been after 1962. But then the generals had left them, and the politicians had left them.
SD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true.
Also Read: Most politicians don’t have a developed system to filter out the noise—Manohar Parrikar in 2013