Before becoming the 13th President of India in 2012, Pranab Mukherjee, born on 11 December 1935, had a distinguished career as a Congress veteran, serving as finance, defence, and foreign minister at various times. Today marks the 89th birth anniversary of the man, who was known for his sharp political acumen and reputation as a ‘crisis manager’.
In 2009, ThePrint Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta interviewed Mukherjee on NDTV’s Walk The Talk. They discussed his work with Indira Gandhi, then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the 2008 Mumbai attacks, and the Congress party’s relationship with the BJP and the Left.
Here is a transcript of an excerpt from the interview, edited for clarity.
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Shekhar Gupta: Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. I am Shekhar Gupta and my guest today, the busiest man in our public life and perhaps one of the busiest in public life anywhere in the world, a man who needs his mind to be like a nine-band radio or who maybe needs 48 hours in a day. Mr. Pranab Mukherjee, welcome to Walk the Talk.
Pranab Mukherjee: Thank you.
So, how many hours do you have in your day?
I wish it could have been extended literally, perhaps I could have coped with things better.
Because you do more jobs than almost anybody can think of.
No, I do not know, because there are some busy people. I was told that Mr Karunanidhi, even at this age, works very hard. And his life is very disciplined. But even at this age, no politician in Tamil Nadu can beat him in working hours.
Your life is very busy.
Of course, of course.
And very disciplined as well.
Ah, more or less, you can say it.
You are very punctual and I believe you have very low patience with anybody who is not punctual.
I try to be punctual, but not always. Sometimes, because of the work you do… but earlier days, I was more punctual. Because of, you know, the basic discipline, which we got from Mrs Indira Gandhi. She was very punctual… Sometimes, if she was missing some work in the cabinet meeting, she would send a slip to me to me saying [she was being delayed by something] routine, ‘I will join you’.
There is something else she once said, I read somewhere—that if you say something to Pranab Mukherjee, it remains with him. That even if you punch him in the stomach, all that comes out is smoke.
[Laughs] That was a beautiful comment.
Do you have any other memories of Mrs Gandhi, of working with her?
Oh, a lot of memories are there. Particularly, I can tell you that she was thorough in every aspect, and she gave a lot of weightage to the view of the others, our cabinet colleagues. But at the same time, she did not like that somebody would go on rambling. She would expect people to be precise, to the point, and confined to the subject.
And if anybody started…
Then immediately she would say that that’s not the issue. The issue is like this.
Right. But sir, from then, now times have changed. From having powerful prime ministers, who everybody deferred to also as a party man, now the prime minister’s job is to manage very complex coalitions.
Of course. Very complex coalition, who do not have a clear majority.
But here is the great advantage Dr Manmohan Singh has, his soothing personality, his vast knowledge of economics, and, absolutely, he never gets irritated at all, at any event or with anybody.
Sometimes he is. It takes a lot to irritate him.
Yeah, it takes a lot to irritate him. I agree with you there.
Because you like to quote from Hamlet, I think, to describe Dr Singh.
Once I told it, I told it in Parliament, I think, Lok Sabha, that be aware of the fury of a quiet man.
He is a quiet man. But once he becomes furious…though he did not become furious, I quoted that.
But in the last four and a half years, have you ever seen him furious or irritated? Has something got to him?
Irritated sometimes maybe, but I sit next to him. He never expresses, he controls himself.
During the days of the nuclear deal?
No. He was very patient.
Were you angry in the days following 26/11?
I was shocked. I must say I was shocked and I felt that there would be no end of it. That was my first impression, because, you know, the same building where I was sitting with Mr (Shah Mahmood) Qureshi, Pakistan foreign minister. I think we left around 7 o’clock, 7.30 or so…. The next morning, we had to go to Chandigarh to address a seminar, so I did not host a dinner for him though the meeting was late, and I apologised to him that I am sorry I am unable to host a dinner. He said, don’t bother about it.
So, we had good talks, we had discussions. Then we left and at around 9-9.30 pm, somebody came and switched on the television in my office. And I don’t think I took my eyes away from the television.
A channel, I do not remember which one, but a man was making some sort of dramatic announcement and it became a little bit irritating to me from time to time. But I think since 3.30 in the morning I sat there, just looking at the television. And in between calls were coming, I was talking to various people.
It went on like that. And the next day, too, it was almost like that. The only difference was that I went to the office.
Take us back to those three days. Now that I have you captive. Those three days, what went through your mind when the attack was on in Bombay?
As I told you, I was so disturbed
Angry?
And sometimes, of course later, I was arguing with myself, that why our people can’t just bomb these and blast these. Then immediately it came to my mind how many innocent lives will be lost. Because nobody knows who is there, what will be the impact. And the way they conducted themselves, our security forces, I must salute them.
So, Pranab da, foreign ministry, finance ministry, a lot of prime minister’s responsibilities now. Although he (Manmohan Singh) is getting better. He is getting better, isn’t he?
No, he is getting better. Doctor said that I think some work he can start now, most of the work he can attend to after 4 weeks. Some work after 2 weeks or 3 weeks. And completely he can take over after 6 weeks, as per the doctor’s suggestion.
But yet, I mean, given the number of GOMs (groups of ministers) you had, what is the hierarchy of importance—what takes most of your time and attention and thinking time? Is it foreign policy, economy or West Bengal Congress?
West Bengal Congress does not take that hierarchy, because basically government business gets top priority for me. Whenever I am in government or whenever I am even out of government, public issues dominate my life. I have no other personal life.
Though I am a family man. But it has never dominated or encroached. And days together it may happen living under the same roof, hardly I see my wife. Because sometimes in the morning or sometimes in the late night, I normally leave my table, working table, after 1 in the morning.
And before I go to my bedroom, I just see, touch her forehead, she is in deep sleep.
Because on foreign policy we have a situation where somebody is flying his own air force planes low over his cities or inventing calls from you. And on the economy, we have this big global crisis. So, what worries you more now?
This is not comparable. Every issue is important. And, so far, the global impact of the meltdown and its impact on India, the prime minister has already taken certain measures. Those are in place.
You know, the basic, fundamental strength of the Indian economy is there. It is not that we are coming down to 2 percent growth or negative growth rate.
Yes, it may not be 9 percent.
Which figure do you believe for this year?
Around 7 percent.
Above or below?
I think it will be around. I don’t know what 1 percent, 1 decimal point or 2 decimal points, this side, that side. But around 7 percent, I expect. Because, you know, up to third quarter it has become. So, in the fourth quarter, if there are no serious issues, perhaps we will be able to maintain.
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Because, you know, even now banks are not lending. A lot of the sections of industry are laying off a lot of people. There is distress.
No, there is distress in certain sectors of the industry, no doubt in it. But, firstly, the health of the banks is sound. Number two, substantially liquidity constraint has been taken care of. Now, if the demand does not pick up, perhaps certain corrective steps may be taken.
Because our rates are still much higher than the global standard now.
Now, what they are doing, various parts, because in that way I must say, we are not totally market-driven. 100% market-driven or 100% market-oriented. We are opening, no doubt, and substantially we have opened. But, in certain areas, we take cautious steps. And, to my mind, it is correct.
So, do we expect rates to, as the Prime Minister said, there is monetary headroom now available?
I would not like to make any comment because I will have to say something when Parliament meets and when I present the interim budget.
No, no. I am talking of monetary easing.
Yes, let us wait for the credit policy which is going to be announced.
But the Prime Minister said last week in his last speech that monetary headroom is now available.
See, the RBI, I think it will be around before the end of this month, they are going to announce the revised credit policy.
So, sir, we talked about all the ministries you handle. What about politics? Because, since you have a lot of spare time, you have to also handle your parties, politics, and alliances.
No, that always you have to do it because these are closely linked, you know. One is not delinked from the other. Whenever I have been in government, some party responsibilities have always been entrusted to me.
And Mrs Gandhi has given four or five things. For instance, I can tell you, drafting of the party manifesto. I have been doing it since 1977, to build up some campaigns. This time, thank God, she herself has taken the chairmanship, or the chairpersonship, of the campaign committee but she has made me the vice-president. So on campaign things also I shall have to help. And there are other people also who help us. It is not that these jobs are done by me alone.
These days, elections are won by people who can strike alliances. So, diplomatic skills become very handy. Now, when you look at the allies, the ones you have is one thing but the ones you don’t have, Mamata (Banerjee) for example, if you got Mamata on your side—I don’t want to say ‘in the bag’, because she may take umbrage—it makes a big difference.
Of course, if Mamata-Congress comes together in Bengal, the situation will definitely improve, likely to improve.
Of course, in 2001, it didn’t happen that way because, after all, we are working with human beings. Plain physical laws are not applicable. But expectation is there.
And a very volatile human being is there.
No, I would not like to comment, because this part is being dealt with by somebody else. I will not directly handle this, because firstly that West Bengal and West Bengal Congress is involved, so I would not like to look into it.
I have requested that, and she also knows it. So, somebody else in the ICC is looking into that.
You will not tell us who?
No.
What’s your view of the Left now? Because nobody knows the Left better than you, in non-Left parties.
No, with the Left we can’t have an alliance. A pre-election alliance is not possible.
In West Bengal?
Nowhere. Because Left states are essentially three, essentially. Out of the 60 members they are having, as many as 55 are coming from these three states.
West Bengal, Tripura and Kerala. And in all three, you are their rival.
And in all these three, Kerala, surely, Tripura, yes, and Bengal, Mamata is emerging as the bigger opposition party compared to us. But nonetheless our presence is also there.
And Mamata is also Congress by another name actually.
Yeah.
Do you see the likelihood of them again coming back with you in the alliance after elections?
Depends on the numbers. After all, democracy is nothing but numbers.
No, but if numbers are fine. You don’t see that ideological divide as having become so much now that it is not possible, or bitterness has become so much after the nuclear deal.
No, I do not think that bitterness is there. Political differences, divergences of views, ideological differences, divergences are there.
Because, you know, when you were negotiating till the last moment. It must have been frustrating that you were not able to close the deal with the Left.
No, that is true. That is true. I felt bad. But it did not leave any bitter taste in my mind. We parted company sadly, I must say.
Will you tell us something about the last meeting you had with Jyoti Basu on this?
No, no. I tried. What I am telling you very frankly, I tried my best, but I failed. I tried to persuade him to let them walk out. Let them not vote against the government.
Let them walk out, let them protest, let them make their full speeches, but let them not vote with BJP. I did not say don’t vote against the government, because it is the government’s policies they are opposing. So, I requested them not to vote with BJP.
And what was his view?
That I should not tell him because it is for them to decide. And it appeared in the media, you have seen. I would not like to comment on what he said.
But do you think that if the Left had taken a slightly broad-minded view, it would have been possible to make a break without actually taking an adverse position voting with BJP? Was it a mistake on their part?
It is from hindsight, there is no need of guessing. What has happened has happened. Let us take it on the face of it.
But have you found this Left more difficult to deal with since Prakash Karat took over? Because it is a different generation of leaders. Because you had an equation in your generation of leaders, or maybe older than you.
I must say, Prakash was very courteous, understanding, decent. But… Ideological differences are there. He is certainly an ideologically oriented man, there is no doubt in it, as was (Harkishan Singh) Surjeet and as was Jyoti Babu. But at the same time, with the age, with the experiences, they have gathered much more things. But so far Prakash is concerned, my dealing with him, or his dealing with the Prime Minister or with Mrs Gandhi, is absolutely perfect.
And professional in every way, politically professional?
Yes.
So, come 2009, if need be, you won’t say that there is no scope for.
I will not make any comment on it, because I know that democracy is nothing but numbers. And I do not guess in numbers.
But it’s not like Congress and BJP can never come together. Congress and Left will never be like Congress and BJP.
I can just quote a famous historical quote, that if Robespierre and Napoleon could have come together, perhaps the history of France would have become different.
That’s true. And that’s why I have to ask you the inevitable question. In the past, Congress and BJP always had strong ideological differences. Mrs Gandhi even put so many leaders of the then Jansangh in jail. But yet the two parties maintained some kind of political contact, discussion, even social contact. It seems that bitterness or disagreement over the past five years has become too much. And there’s not enough conversation between the two parties.
Sometimes we have some discussions.
But not enough, sir.
Maybe. Maybe I do not know. But sometimes we have some discussions, and I do not think that there will be any bitterness. Because, just very recently, when Parliament was attacked, Mrs Gandhi, the first thing she did, she contacted Mr (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee and enquired about his safety. And Vajpayee made a very beautiful comment, that if the leader of the opposition enquires about the safety and security of the leader of the government, that is the biggest testimony of all of our functional democracy.
But in the last few years, it looks like communication is minimal.
Because of certain factors. Let us not go into that aspect. Everyone knows what happened after the election results of 2004? So, what is the point of raking up those issues, and going for who is responsible for what?
After the elections of 2004, you mean comments about Mrs Gandhi or…?
If you want to elaborate it, I will leave it to you.
But as a veteran of Indian politics, you think this is right or this is wrong? This needs to be rectified.
This is a question of value judgment. It’s a question of what happens. The situation as it is, you have to accept it.
But it would be better for India’s politics if the two major parties talk.
Of course, it is always better. And it is not that we have stopped talking. You are saying it is not enough. I don’t know. We are sick of judging whether it is enough or not. But talks are there.
If you are saying that the two parties are talking, I think that is reassuring, because if anything has to happen at a substantive level, whether between Congress and BJP, India-Pakistan, India-US, India-China…
I am telling you, I am the leader of the house. Every session, before the session, during the session, I am to talk to Mr Jaswant Singh. Even after the Mumbai attack, I had a discussion with Mr Jaswant Singh. Informal, of course.
So, several times talks take place.
Well, thank you very much. Brilliant conversation. I know you have a million more important things to do. So, I am so grateful you found the time
Thank you.
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