In 2003, ThePrint Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta interviewed CPI(M) veteran and then West Bengal chief minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee on NDTV’s Walk The Talk.
Bhattacharjee spoke about running a leftist government in a capitalist framework, his love for Satyajit Ray films, writing a play in the aftermath of the Babri demolition and his views on Communist rule in China.
The CPI(M) veteran passed away Thursday at his residence in Kolkata’s Palm Avenue. He was 80 and had been suffering from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease for some years now. He is survived by his wife and son.
Bhattacharjee took over the reins of West Bengal in 2000, at the end of Jyoti Basu’s 23-year term as chief minister and led the Left Front to victory in the 2001 and 2006 assembly elections.
Here is the full transcript of the interview, edited for clarity.
Shekhar Gupta (SG): Don’t be misled by the colour of my shirt. This is deep red territory. And with me today, my guest, Mr Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, the only Marxist ruler, if I could call him that, in the world, isn’t it? And an elected one at that, barring the government in Tripura.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee (BB): Yes, I am only a chief minister of a state, in the strict sense of the term.
SG: But the only Marxist government in the world, apart from Tripura, isn’t it?
BB: I should say it’s a Marxist-led government. It’s a Left coalition government, with a minimum common programme. But this is not a Marxist programme, in the strict sense of the term.
SG: I remember you said once to me, in another informal conversation, that you were conscious of the fact that you did not get elected to implement the Marxist agenda.
BB: Yes, we cannot. We are realists. We know we are working under a capitalist framework. But with different ideology, different programmes. And accordingly, we have to formulate our programmes, and try to implement it.
SG: So what is the capitalist framework? Is it the Constitution, or is it the way India’s economy is structured? Or is it the way the Indian mind looks at life, business, enterprise, economy?
BB: Capitalism is capitalism. And our agrarian sector, we call it a semi-feudal, semi-capitalist structure. And overall the Indian economy is a capitalist economy. But we believe that we have to find an alternative path, at least in the state. I am not talking about the national plan. We have our programmes on the national plan. But so far our state is concerned, with our experience, the nine political parties have formulated certain programmes, how we can improve the livelihood (of citizens).
SG: But you are still not creating a socialist state.
BB: Certainly not. We are not building socialism. We are only trying to implement alternative programmes for the benefit of the toiling masses, for the poor farmers; 94 percent of our farmers are poor and marginal.
SG: But that’s a tough call in a situation where the Constitution, you know, we have a tradition of enterprise, free economy, agriculture is entirely in the domain of free economy. It’s a tough call. I believe that’s why people tell me that when you get really tired, or when you get really distracted, you come to this place, this is the Nandan Cinema complex, your favourite haunt.
BB: Yes, that is good. That is correct.
SG: And I believe you sit here in the Satyajit Ray archives room.
BB: Yes, if I get some time, I sit here, I come here.
SG: And watching Satyajit Ray films?
BB: Not only Ray’s films. Ray’s films were my favourite. But I see other films also. My favourite directors like (Akira) Kurosawa, (Michelangelo) Antonioni, (Ingmar) Bergman, these are all my favourites.
SG: This I believe is an instrument that Satyajit Ray used in all his films.
BB: And he also used it in one of his films, Ghare-Baire.
SG: I believe you also became famous, I would not say infamous, for one of the plays that you wrote or produced. I think Dussomoy, it was called Bad Times.
BB: Bad Times.
SG: It was a particularly pessimistic one.
BB: It was written after the demolition of Babri Masjid. Location was some places in Hindi belt, in the areas, maybe UP or Bihar. What is going after the demolition of Babri Masjid. That is purely a reaction after demolition of Babri Masjid. It was appreciated by all sections.
SG: But there were comments not just on Babri Masjid or what was happening with Hindu communalism. But also about the state of our governance. And a lot of people saw many comments about the way the state was being run.
BB: That is a misinformation. Journalists wrote those things. They did not even see that drama. That is totally based on the communal problem. And the unfortunate developments that took place.
SG: But that is one difference I find and many of us find in the way you have related to the communal situation. And to the BJP and the India government. And the Left in general. Somehow you have been much less angry or abusive or negative at least in your utterances towards the NDA or the BJP. Is that deliberate or is that a matter of style?
BB: No. What I feel, I do not want to invite confrontation. We have divergent views on many political issues, ideological issues. And that is there. But still, we are running a government. Somebody asked me, what is your relation with Mr Advani? I told them, what should be the relation between the deputy prime minister and the chief minister of the country? More not less than that.
SG: But did you get the feeling that sometimes chief ministers of parties other than the ruling party at the Centre have failed their test? They have not maintained the right kind of relationship with either the Centre or with key people at the Centre?
BB: I am not bothered about what other chief ministers are doing. I have to run this government. And I have to maintain a working relation with the government. Whenever we get support, cooperation is good. But when we face difficulty, then we oppose their policies.
SG: But do you hear this complaint sometimes? People say you are too close to Mr Advani. You meet him too often. I mean your predecessor used very heavy adjectives about the BJP, you know, barbarians.
BB: I told you. My way of dealing with this problem, I don’t want to invite confrontation unnecessarily. But whenever they support our policy, programme, they help us, we welcome it. But when they create difficulty for us, just for example, they are now closing down important public undertakings in our state. Companies, basically engineering companies, big public undertakings. Then I am opposing it. I am writing letters to the prime minister, others. This is a big problem with them. We are facing serious floods in two districts due to the management of Farakka Barrage (in Murshidabad district). We need a master plan. They are not listening to us. I have taken up this issue with them.
SG: But that’s the most Left-like approach to tackling a problem. The Left approach is confrontation, red flags, slogans, kicking somebody in the shins.
BB: At the political level, we are doing that. Our party, our Left front, we mobilise, we organise rallies, agitation. But from the government side, we have to be patient. And we have to take up this issue at this level in the proper manner.
SG: But Mr Bhattacharya, when you say this in your party, that I don’t want to invite confrontation, that there is a government in the Centre, people in their wisdom have elected them, let’s deal with them as a central government. We can differ with them on ideological grounds in the arena of politics. And if I need to deal with Mr Advani, have a functioning relationship with him, I will do so. And the chief minister must, with the home minister of the country. Do you get criticism or complaints from your party? Or do people in your party appreciate it?
BB: No. Nobody has criticised me up till now. Because they know what is in my mind. They understand my difficulty. And they understand I have no special relation with Mr. Advani. And they understand what should be between the chief minister and the deputy prime minister.
SG: But there are those, I noticed even in Calcutta, who say that Mr Advani has a better relationship with you than with many chief ministers from parties aligned to the NDA.
BB: I don’t know.
SG: Or they give him more trouble than you give him.
BB: That I don’t know.
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SG: And when you say that you realise that you are not building a socialist state, that you are running a leftist government in a capitalist framework, what response do you get from your party men or even cadres?
BB: We are telling them what is the reality. And we regularly hold our party conferences at different levels. And we explain the political objective situation that is prevailing in the country. And what is our programme? What is our programme of land reform? What is our programme of panchayat? How can we increase our food production, food grains? Now we are topping the country in so far rice production is concerned, fish, vegetables.
SG: West Bengal has done very well in agriculture but not quite so in industry and enterprise. So that’s the question. West Bengal has carried out the difficult reform very well. You know, whether it’s land reforms or it’s the panchayati systems. Political reform has been carried out very well. But an economic reform somehow West Bengal has got left behind.
BB: Yes. You see, we are trying to change. And things are changing for the better. After the announcement of our industrial policy, we gave emphasis on the participation of private companies in our whole effort for industrialization of the state.
SG: Recently you also called private partners for some of your failed companies. Or your PSU companies.
BB: Yes. Two, three areas I just want to mention. That is one aspect of our new industrial policy. Then we recently took a new mineral policy. We are opening up for private participation. Take participation in our mineral resources. And then we have recently taken a policy decision that is called private-public joint partnership in constructing houses.
SG: Can the private sector trust you?
BB: Yes. If you go through the figures, I just can’t tell you. Last three years, in 2002, the investment came of Rs 2,000 crore. Last year it was Rs 2,300 (crore). And this year it will cross Rs 2,500 (crore), I tell you. In iron and steel. Private investment.
SG: But there are those in the private sector or foreign investors who worry that all right, Mr Bhattacharya has a more practical outlook. But tomorrow you might have a more doctrinaire leadership here which may reverse everything.
BB: You see, just today I met the chairman of Mitsubishi. Right. And he gave me this information that from this year they have started earning profit. And within two years, it is very good news for them.
SG: Out of Bengal?
BB: Yes. They have a project, they have a unit in Haldia. Mitsubishi Chemicals. Then IBM is taking interest in our IT sector. You see, these foreign companies, they are coming.
SG: The other concern the businessmen have had doing business in Bengal is their trade union activity. There are so many strikes, so many bandhs, militant trade unionism. And somehow there is a feeling that the government here is never able to discipline them.
BB: No, you see, our advantage is that the ruling parties, we have trade unions. We are the strongest union among the workers. We can convince the workers.
SG: The CPM itself is the strongest union among, I think, all political parties.
BB: And that is also true in terms of trade unions in our state. Now we are in a position to convince the workers. Look, you have to change your mindset now. In a very competitive world, the question of production, productivity, quality of production, that is not only the headache of the employers.
SG: But do the workers understand this?
BB: Yes. It will take some time, but the message is going.
SG: Do you see a change in their minds?
BB: Yes, certainly. You see, there are 16,000 professionals working in the IT sector. Not a single man’s day was lost. In the knowledge-based industries, in the IT sector, biotechnology sector, and even in the foreign countries, you can talk to others, big companies like ITC, Hindustan Lever, like foreigners. Japanese direct investment in India is highest in West Bengal.
SG: I see.
BB: And they are participating.
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SG: When you talk to your unions, you tell them, now you need productivity, you need quality, only the management can’t do it. The workers must also contribute. Do you also tell them that if the workers don’t contribute, if they are not up to it, the management may even fire you?
BB: No, I don’t use these words. We tell them that you must improve productivity.
SG: So what words do you use? What euphemism do you use for hire and fire?
BB: You have to face reality. And if you don’t perform, then your industry is gone and your job is over.
SG: And if you face the reality, if somebody confronts you with reality, you cannot respond by taking out the red flag?
BB: Yes, I tell them only agitation will not help. You have to understand the problem of the industry. Just for example, now we are in the midst of a crisis in the tea industry. I tell the workers, you have to improve your productivity. Otherwise, tea is a very important industry as far as West Bengal is concerned. Tea, jute and engineering. If we cannot improve our production, we cannot compete with Sri Lanka or Kenya. That is the problem.
SG: With the WTO (World Trade Organization), it might be cheaper one day to import tea from Sri Lanka or Kenya to India. Sri Lanka wants to sell their tea in India.
BB: That is a real threat now. Therefore, it is not only a threat to tea planters. Workers have to understand the problem.
SG: So will you tell businessmen, come and invest in my state, industries, I will give you a very good industrial climate. Very good climate of industrial relations.
BB: I have been telling this all these years, and they are coming, and there are some doubts. I mean, our country in some parts, or our country in other countries.
SG: So, businessmen trust you when you say this to them?
BB: Most of them. But there are still some doubts, some apprehensions in certain corners. I am trying to erase them.
SG: Are there people within your party or in your unions who are saying that perhaps you are going too far?
BB: No. There is no doubt. There is always a debate on this issue. How far will we change our policy? What is our way of reform? There is always debate going on. It is going on everywhere. The Chinese party, the Vietnamese party, I attended the South African Communist Party.
SG: That’s an interesting question. You know, the whole world is changing. The whole world is now globalising, no matter what you do. What future does the Left find for itself? How does the Left mold itself now to be relevant in this time?
BB: We believe in some basic tenets of Marxism. We cannot give up. But we have to apply our theory, our understanding of the objective situation. Chinese leaders say interesting things. Learn truth from the facts.
SG: Learn truth from the facts, I think.
BB: Yes, this is very important for us.
SG: So, there is another truism like, it doesn’t matter what colour the cat is, as long as the cat is white.
BB: That is Deng Xiaoping… I would not say that. What I feel is that we have to understand the reality, the changes all over the world. For example, globalisation. Globalisation is a must. But it should not be one-way traffic, like what is going to happen in Cancun (fifth ministerial meeting of WTO at Cancun, Mexico, in September 2003). We correctly opposed and we stopped that.
SG: But again, the remarkable thing is that you actually wrote, I believe, to Arun Jaitley to congratulate him for the way he handled Cancun. When was the last time a Marxist chief minister or leader wrote a congratulatory note to a central government?
BB: No, because for the first time, the government of India, as far as WTO is concerned, they were always submitting to the demands of the USA and the European Union. First time, they formed a group of 21 countries and they opposed this. Arun Jaitley, we had a talk during our stay in Srinagar. He was telling me, I’m trying to combine China and Brazil and we’ll just try to protect the interests of developing countries. And he has done it.
SG: What do you think of China? In China, you see no democracy, the Communist Party is ruling, but communism as such has been dismantled. In India, there is a lot of democracy, not very perfect, but a lot of democracy. There is a Communist Party or Communist Coalition ruling in one state, but duly elected. But a system that is still more socialist than China. So sometimes it sounds very paradoxical. How do you explain it?
BB: You see, the situation in China and India is different. Ours is a democracy. And this system works, if you compare it with other third world countries in Africa, Latin America. But what you call the dictatorship or one-party rule, under this one-party rule, China has done tremendous success. In every sphere of life. Even countries like the USA, Germany, Japan, cannot catch up with China. The growth rate, if you just see.
SG: That’s because the base was low.
BB: That is correct. But if you compare with India and China, we got our independence in 1947. They liberated the country in 1949.
SG: So are you saying democracy is a bad thing?
BB: No, that I am not going to conclude from that. But that system did work. And they are more successful than India.
SG: But sir, if you look at a state like West Bengal, West Bengal has stagnated for many years. It has also been ruled by the Left for many years. Sometimes it looks, but at the same time, it has much more democracy than China can ever imagine having. So it does look like a China with democracy, but West Bengal without Chinese growth. How do you match the two?
BB: I just cannot compare with China and West Bengal. Because it is a big country, and we are a small state.
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SG: Has West Bengal suffered, maybe because many of your predecessors did not change in time?
BB: Yes, in earlier periods, we did commit some mistakes.
SG: Like what?
BB: Like discouraging the private sector. We had some wrong ideas that the government would construct, the government would run industries, the government will construct infrastructure, and the government will do everything sort of thing. Now we are changing. And within this setup, we have to take this private industry seriously. And I am going to give them this message. We are an investment friendly government. Please join us.
SG: So there is no contradiction between sort of modern socialism and private enterprise?
BB: No, in the sense that we have no hidden agenda. Our industrial policy is an open document. They understand our mind. Most of the chamber of commerce, their leaders, they understand what we are going to do in our state.
SG: So what other mistakes has the left made in West Bengal and in India, more specifically?
BB: That is a big… We are in introspection time right now. No. The party, in the national plan, there are so many issues, I just cannot explain. But, in our state, I can tell you that some problem was created in the 70s when we first formed this Left Front government. And there was some confusion among the middle class, intelligentsia.
SG: In the 70s?
BB: In the 70s, early 70s.
SG: What kind of confusion, sir?
BB: Confusion, actually what we are going to do with our new policy in education, in health, in industrial policy. I am just giving one example. So for the IT sector itself, we are a late starter. We did not give much importance in these early years.
SG: Did you… did the Left make the mistake of not understanding the significance of investment and enterprise?
BB: That I told you. We announced our industrial policy only in 1994. Problem was… another problem was there, during ‘License Raj’, before 1991, one had to ask for a licence from the central government. And that policy was changed in 1991. And after that, we took full advantage of that decision. We announced our industrial policy in 1994. And from then, things are changing.
SG: But aren’t you worried about the fact that so many talented Bengalis leave the state, looking for… universities, IAS academies, engineering colleges, and IITs are filled with Bengalis. Newspaper offices are filled with Bengalis around the world. And there is not enough talent here.
BB: No, I am telling you.
SG: Why is this brain drain from Bengal? How long will it go on for?
BB: You see, I can give, tell you 2-3 ideas. Just 3 years back, we had only 9 engineering colleges.
SG: Now you have 48, I think.
BB: Now we have 48 colleges. One boy or girl who passes from the joint interest examination, he has not, now he has not to go to other states.
SG: But that is just one area.
BB: And then, about medical colleges, we are now constructing two new medical colleges. In the IT sector, this is very good information. Once, Premji told me, Azim Premji, that you see, my professionals in this country and in other countries, 50 percent of them are Bengalis. And 70 percent are only from Jadavpur University. That is good news. At the same time, it is also very bad news for me.
SG: Good challenge for you now to get them back. Now to get them back. Once you produce now, to retain them in the state.
BB: I have taken that challenge. Now things are moving fast.
SG: You will need a change of mindset, I think, across the board in the state. All the very best to you.
BB: Thank you very much.
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