If Emergency was brought in the interest of the nation, I am with Indira ji—Bal Thackeray in 2007

Today marks the 99th birth anniversary of the Shiv Sena founder. In his 2007 Walk The Talk interview, he discussed the film Sarkar, controversies over his leadership, and the Emergency.

Illustration by Arindam Mukherjee | ThePrint

New Delhi: Before founding the Shiv Sena in 1966 to advocate for the rights of Marathi-speaking people (the “sons of the soil”) in Mumbai, Bal Thackeray was a renowned cartoonist for the Free Press Journal in Mumbai. His sharp wit and ability to capture the political climate in his drawings served as a precursor to his later political style.

Born on 23 January 1926, today marks the 99th birth anniversary of the man, who continues to be a revered figure for many Marathi speakers and Hindu nationalists alike, who see him as a champion of their rights and culture.

In 2007, ThePrint Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta interviewed Thackeray on NDTV’s Walk The Talk. They discussed the movie Sarkar’s certain inaccurate portrayal, corruption allegations, party funding, his support for the Emergency, and his views on India, with Thackeray maintaining an authoritative and unapologetic stance all the while. He also acknowledged some of the negative aspects of his party.

Here is a transcript of an excerpt from the interview, edited for clarity.

Shekhar Gupta: Sir, we were talking about Sarkar the film. Now, that’s a caricature. And you say as a creative person, you think that first of all you admire the fact, you appreciate the fact that the producer got many things right and authentic. And Amitabh Bachchan got your characterisation right. Right.

Bal Thackeray: All my private habits.

SG: Your private habits?

BT: Yes, actually well-put. But unless somebody must have…

SG: Some insider.

BT: An insider must have given them these guidelines.

SG: Ghar ka bhedi.

BT: Yeah

SG: So, what other mannerisms have they got right? One was your raised arm. What else did he get right?

BT: The money problem that I actually asked my other assistants to collect money. I never did in my life.

SG: So, that was not right.

BT: Till this time, this time, I have not given tickets to anybody unless they gave me something. No. Either me or Uddhav. And even Raj was there.

SG: But even in your Rajya Sabha seats, you haven’t taken money? Because it’s widely believed that some of your distinguished Rajya Sabha members actually paid your party. Or why are they there?

BT: Sometimes there are certain things they do themselves outside the thing. My knowledge or the ambit in fact. But I never.

SG: Such as what?

BT: I challenge, my open challenge to anybody that he has given me money. No.

SG: Alright. I take your word on that. But you said sometimes people of the kind who went to Rajya Sabha on your tickets. They may have done things on their own for your party. They would have contributed.

BT: Nobody. You ask any of my MPs. Rajya Sabha or Lok Sabha. And you can… Quickly they can do because the figure is very few. Lok Sabha, there are 12 people. And in Rajya Sabha, there are about 4 people or 5 people, 4 people. So, after knowing full well that this is my nature. Unless you condemn a person, it doesn’t serve your purpose. That what you want to achieve, what you want to get from all this canard actually. The man who is actually charging me of all this money affairs, he himself had earned money on Shiv Sena.

SG: Who is that?

BT: I don’t want to name. No controversy at this stage. But I have slashed him. I have slashed him.

SG: Balasaheb is not known to mince his words.

BT: Yes

SG: So, say who?

BT: No question of mincing. It will be published. It will be shown.

SG: Yes, but it should be.

BT: But I don’t want that particular controversy at this stage when the elections are nearby.

SG: Balasaheb, you are a cartoonist.

BT: Yes.

SG: When you wake up in the morning, what makes you laugh? Then I will ask you what makes you cry.

BT: They neither make me laugh, they never make me cry.

SG: But generally, in terms of what’s happening in India, in your city, in your state, what makes you happy today?

BT: There are no any happy incidents are taking place. All blasts and murders, Bangladesh Muslims pouring in, and Pakistanis are playing havoc. How can you feel happy with this?

SG: But there is 9% growth. There is infrastructure being built. There is India being regarded so highly internationally. Indian companies buying companies overseas. All that’s happening.

BT: Some years back, a cartoon appeared drawn by R.K. Lakshman, my great friend.

SG: I believe you have worked in adjoining desks.

BT: We started our career in Shri Parijan. Both, even Lakshman too. But he had drawn, there is a car with a man with a Gandhi topi (cap) on. And there is a mother and a child. And naturally, if any car stops, the beggars do go near the car and beg. The child is going near that car and the mother is warning: ‘Come back. He is a minister. He will not give you anything.’ That’s the thing.

SG: Many people would smirk when you say, when you talk about removing corruption. Because Shiv Sena itself has not run itself in a most uncorrupt manner. Or a particularly uncorrupt manner. Either the government or the party.

BT: But much, much better than any other political party. Much better.

SG: So less worse than the others.

BT: I mean, when individuals take money in the name of Shiv Sena, what else we can do? Unless a man is caught and brought before me, I take my action.

SG: But, but you also need money for the party.

BT: I do.

SG: Where does that come from?

BT: They come from some good friends. Maybe magnates, sometimes.

SG: Balasaheb, I can’t help but keep going back to this idea of benevolent dictatorship. And your description of that as Shiv Shahi. Does that explain the way you responded?

BT: First, what is the meaning of benevolent? Refer to the dictionary and find out.

SG: I know. Benevolence is for the people.

BT: For the people.

SG: Yes. For welfare, etc. I understand that.

BT: That is, unless you dictate this benevolent thing, you can’t rule the thing.

SG: Sure, sir.

BT: How Maharaj has actually done it is the same thing. Say, I have given you the example is mama. Then?

SG: Right. Sir, does that explain the way you responded to the Emergency and to Sanjay Gandhi? You did not disagree with the Emergency. And you thought Sanjay Gandhi’s method was good. You admired him at that point.

BT: Emergency, I did support. Of course. But you media people always do, very tactfully, to damage the image of the man who issued the statement. What I said? I do support Emergency. If Indira ji has brought this Emergency in the interest of the nation, then I am with her. I will support Emergency. But if she had brought this Emergency, implemented this Emergency for the sake of her own chair, to safeguard her chair, I oppose it vehemently.