This is the full transcript of RSS National Executive member and patron of the Muslim Rashtriya Manch Indresh Kumar’s interview with ThePrint’s Neelam Pandey.
Q: My first question to you is, what are your views on the Gyanvapi issue? How do you see it, especially now when the Allahabad court has refused to put a stay on it on the Varanasi court orders on prayers being conducted at the site?
A: This is neither a Hindu-Muslim issue, nor is it an Islam or Sanatan bound issue. The issue is that foreign conquerors came and destroyed this place. You can either choose to side with those who destroyed your country, or with your own country and its people. There are written historical records that Aurangzeb had earnestly tried to destroy every temple during his time.
Secondly, does Islam allow for broken idols to be kept inside its places of worship? Is it a part of Muslim architecture? If it is so, then it must be written somewhere that broken idols make mosques appear more beautiful. Everyone agrees that it is not so. Now, Gyanvapi has both broken and unbroken idols in it. They are symbols too. So it is clear then. Islam says, if someone’s place of worship is broken down to make way for another architecture, such a place would never stand and it would never take shape. Hence, there is no part of any mosque present inside Gyanvapi’s premises. This is the truth.
Followers of Islam have told me that if you pray at such a place, your prayers are never accepted.
Thirdly, something that is very important is that when this was destroyed and turned into a mosque it was named Gyanvapi. Be it all around the world or anywhere else in Sanskrit or non-sanskrit texts, no mosque has ever been called by that name.
Does Islam allow for it and do Muslims agree that mosques can have Sanskrit names? If it is so, other mosques could have been named as such and if not, they should understand that the site’s name is Gyanvapi. Which Muslim kept the name? Why did they keep it? This was a religious name according to Sanatan terms and a mosque was deliberately constructed over it but it could never be completed.
Another point that needs to be taken into consideration is that, these sites where temples were broken down by foreign invaders and mosques were constructed, why did no Muslim leader ever come to read namaz in these sites, when reading namaz in small gatherings has always been permitted there. All the Muslim leaders, be it Maulanas or Maulvis or Imams or any political or social leader, name any one, if this was such a pious and important space, then someone must have, at one point of time, travelling through Benaras, Kashi, visited the place but they didn’t. From then to now, no Badshah, Nawab or Senapati came, no Maulana, Maulvi or Imam came, no religious or political/social leader gave a visit. They came to visit these cities, they came for electoral campaigns but they never once visited this site. If it is such a holy place for them, then they should have visited it but they did not.
Now there is no protest or fight. The only two ways to resolve this is through communication and rule of law. Both sides went to court and the court made a decision. Now the question here is, do you agree with the court’s order or not? Because the solution to the problem, as the Rasool (Prophet) himself says, is that when he undertook the Hijrah from Mecca to Medina, and the solution that happened there, he says that, “O my followers, no problem can be solved by rioting or fights, but by communication and in the courts of law.” Hence, people communicated and eventually went to court where the case went on for many years.
Now the judgment has been made. It is a decision that is no one’s win or loss. It is a decision about truth. The truth of this place. Inside the court, both sides kept their arguments based on which the court gave its ruling. If you don’t agree with the ruling, you challenge it further in higher courts. It is a right that has been given to you by the Constitution of India.
Hence, there is no path of violence or fighting in this. Prayers are being held according to the court’s orders, those that have an issue with it or do not agree, do not need to resort to protests of any sort. They should accept the court’s ruling which is neither anti-masjid nor pro-Hindu. The ruling is in favour of truth which has been made in an unbiased manner according to the arguments presented in court.
If the court has said that the Gauri Shringar prayers can be held 5 times a day then, they should accept it because a person goes to court with the belief that he will be served justice and justice has been done. This should be agreed upon because the point is, if it were an Islam vs Hindutva/ Sanatan issue, it would be for other mosques as well. It is not that.
If it were a Hindu vs Muslim case, no Muslims would have been allowed to enter the periphery of that site. So neither is it Hindu vs Muslim nor is it Sanatan vs Islam, it is about truth and the fact that for crores of Hindus, in India and across it is a place of faith.
Those that want to call it a masjid should ask, how did broken idols enter the premises of a mosque? Why is it there? This proves that a Hindu place of worship was demolished by foreign invaders, the idols were desecrated as they watched. Is this Islam? Is it constitutional? Is this humanity? Is this an establishment of truth? If you test it against all these principles, then it is clear that everyone should unanimously agree to the court’s ruling. This is for the betterment of all and let peace prevail in the country so that there is a sense of harmony and brotherhood among communities and when a decision is made on what is true and fair, there remains no dispute.
Ayodhya’s decision too was made by a court and still it was decided that Muslims be given 5 acre land for their place of worship. Those who tried to fuel disagreements, create divisions and tensions did so, but I must congratulate the Muslim brethren that they chose to not resort to any of these and chose the road of peace and harmony. Lakhs and crores of Hindus visit that site, if they had any feelings of hatred against Muslims, there should have been no mosques left at the place, they should not have allowed a single Muslim to live there so those who try to frame it that way, are in the wrong.
This was an act undertaken by foreign invaders and it is the task of every Indian to counter those attacks, rather than standing in support of all these invaders and the plunder they left behind.
Q: Since you mentioned Ram Mandir, when the judgment came, it was said that no further instances of looking for idols in mosques will be done. Even Mohan Bhagwat had said that after this, a shivling will be searched for in every mosque. So how do you see this?
A: What he meant was that there would be no force used anywhere. This case was ongoing even then. If they would have agreed, the Muslim manch could have said that we don’t need a court case, we will solve this with mutual discussion. No one had stopped them. So he had said not to make use of any force. But this was an ongoing case so accordingly, it is in continuity with that case where Hindus have not made use of any sort of force. To see or claim it as forced would be wholly untrue, unconstitutional and inhuman. This is against fundamental rights so the case was ongoing and the court was looking into it. So when such a statement was made, they should have said that let the case be and just go with what is right and fair. So, if what was fair and true had been established, it is in my opinion, only now that peace and communal harmony is possible.
So what he said, is an extremely beneficial and careful path that should be followed by all but the question is, the cases that are ongoing need to be resolved first. So those cases, somewhere around 20-40 cases are ongoing so no one said that these cases will be withdrawn. Secondly, nowadays what is true and fair is available in the books. Those who did the looting, plundering and exploitation have now given testimony so I did not feel anything. I had recently been to Kashi and there was an event being organised by the Muslims and I asked them what they thought and they said what is true and fair will be decided and we will abide by that. So the case was between two parties. Had they not liked the verdict, they could have appealed to a higher court. There is no need for a dharna or protest for that.
Q: Like you mentioned, it was the Ram Mandir, then Kashi-Mathura, when do you think there will be a closure?
The Kashi-Mathura issue is to do with Gyanvapi only. No one can give a definite answer on when and where this will stop. Now if someone asks when will the Russia-Ukraine war end. It is still not known when the Israel-Hamas war will see its end. When will the Israel-Hezbollah or the Iran-Iraq dispute end? Iran has decided not to send its pilgrims to Saudi Arabia. When will the Arab-Iran war end? Al Aqsa is a place that is worshipped by 3 groups– Jews, Christians and Muslims. The fight has been ongoing for 1400 years and during special days, the site is witness to bombs, tensions, riots and murders.
I keep repeating, that when 45% of the world’s population is ‘always in hatred, always in struggle’, regarding Al Aqsa, how will global peace prevail? So why don’t all these communities come together and mutually decide among themselves? But they won’t and this dispute has been ongoing for some 1400 or more years now.
Similarly, these issues have been ongoing as well. For permanent peace, there is only one way. I always say these 4 lines: may everyone keep their pride of identity, religion, caste and creed intact and not resort to fundamentalism and not be arrogant and secondly, they should not mock other religions or belittle them or even interfere in their matters. Thirdly, everyone should rather have mutual respect for each other and fourthly, it would be better if you harmoniously gather for each other’s celebrations. “There should be respect for all’ and indulge– ‘participate in all’. If we do that, all the global disputes that are fought in the name of religion can be prevented.
Eventually, Muslims are fighting in a Muslim country and Christians are fighting in Christian countries, at least no Hindu country is fighting amongst themselves. This means that people sitting there should introspect that from (Muhammad) Ghori to Ghazni, there are so many empty lands in India and a person from any religion be it a christian can wish to make a church and buy land or get it as a donation and then make it. Buddhists make it, sanatanis make it, jains make it but this behaviour of encroaching on someone else’s lands, that needs to be done away with. When they do that and follow the 4 lines mentioned above, they are not fundamentalist or violent in their approach, but as humans and do not interfere in the affairs of others, and respect each other and participate with each other. If they follow this path then, India will be free of communal riots and tensions. This has always been India’s inherent nature due to which the country has always respected everyone and adopted them. This is the sanatani nature and it is the most peaceful religion in the world. Otherwise, the question of closure applies as in the Al Aqsa dispute — the violence, the bloodshed, how long will it continue? It continues even today, 1400 years later so you tell me, why is it continuing? It should have ended. They don’t want to go to any court and the fight is permanent and the dispute has now taken such a horrific turn that they hate each other to an extent where they no longer care about what is right or true. They just fight.
You should understand how India is. Let me tell you, Hamas attacked the Israelis when they were peacefully celebrating their festival. They attacked them and killed hundreds of innocent people. They were not indulging in any political act, they were merely celebrating. So, whom should the Muslims of India stand with? Should they stand with Hamas or with the peaceful Israelis but India took a stand that what is terrorism, untrue, criminal and wrong should be seen that way. It is a crime and India condemned it and supported Israel that it should investigate and answer, in self-defence. But while this was happening, an Israeli bomb was dropped suddenly on a hospital in the Gaza strip. No muslim or christian country came forward, those who called themselves Muslims before calling themselves Indians, even they didn’t come forward but it was only the govt of India which sent trucks filled with aid to the country and condemned this incident too. Hence, impartiality is India’s leading trait now.
Even during the Russia-Ukraine war, stranded Indian students in Ukraine were brought back. No one knows about the conversations the Indian PM had with his Russian or Ukrainian counterparts, but India made sure that students pick up the tricolor and neither will Russians fire at you nor Ukrainians, and safely reach the airport.
Even Pakistanis who keep saying, ‘hass kar liya Pakistan, lad kar lenge Hindustan’ and have wasted many years in border wars where hundreds have been murdered, and have destroyed their country’s peace and development— even those Pakistanis picked up the tricolor and were assisted in going back safely. This is what India is, this is how it has always been, and this is how it will remain. Hence, distance yourself from that which is untrue and choose to stand with the truth. Distance yourself from what is wrong and stand with what is right and all these disputes can be resolved without any problem because if you take the right path, then you will ultimately reach your destination. If your pathway is wrong, you will never reach your destination.
There are the 3 groups within Abrahamic religions — Muslims, Christians and Jews. All 3 are at war in Al Aqsa, even though all 3 are from the same lineage. This means that, be it religious conversions or mocking of other religions, both are wrong. Destroying religious sites and creating something else in the same place also needs to be done away with. ‘When there is respect for all, there will be a solution and peace will be there’.
Q: You are the patron of Rashtriya Muslim Manch. You must have seen the active debates around UCC by the govt and it is set to be implemented in Uttarakhand. Now the discussion is focused on keeping the tribals separate from this, at the national level. If tribals are to be kept out of this, then what is uniform in it? Opposition is saying that a community is being deliberately targeted.
A: The thing is, those who say that a community is being deliberately targeted here are the ones at fault here. Saying this is in itself unconstitutional, unjust, unfair and is criminal so those whose dictionary is filled with these terms, they use such language for vote bank politics. They have decided this. I say to the Muslims of this country to alert them. I interact more with the Muslims of this country than them, I address lakhs of Muslims daily. This is known across the country and in the world, so they don’t want them to be identified as Indians. There are many minority communities in India — Sikh, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, and Christians too — why don’t they feel threatened?
This is a deliberate conspiracy to break the unity of the nation, to breach the peace of the nation — it is a conspiracy to end, it is volte bank politics and that is why, when the Opposition says something like this, it is untrue and has been that way. In Pakistan, atrocities are being committed on minorities, there are global media reports on this so should that be stopped or not? Should they not be given protection? Who are the minorities in Pakistan? It is not the Muslims, but the Hindus. So atrocities are being committed on them. Sikhs, Buddhists and Christians are also facing it. Name one Muslim or Christian country that has called on Pakistan to stop these atrocities. No one says it. Why? Have minorities been kept in Pakistan to inflict atrocities on them and torture them? They can then identify themselves as such. So India was the one that opened the doors.
Q: You are talking about CAA?
A: Yes, I am talking about both. I am explaining CAA to explain UCC. India is the sole humanitarian country in this context and that is because it is fundamentally Hindu, that said we open our doors for the minorities in Pakistan and Afghanistan and they opened their doors in the form of CAA. The question then is, why did Muslims protest against this? Do they want the oppression of minorities to continue? And those that further fanned these protests, are they then anti-minority or pro-minority? Are they anti-democracy or pro-democracy? Are they anti-humanity or pro-humanity? Those that protested against CAA not only are anti-Constitution and anti-humanity, they are also anti-harmony and anti-brotherhood. Having faced such atrocities, where will these communities go? So they enter as outsiders. Instead of this the Indian government took a stand which was a model for the entire country — respect for all. To not commit atrocities on anyone, to respect and protect everyone. ‘It is the best model for the world to have a lesson.’
Similarly, under UCC they said the same. Those who are disruptive and are speaking against it, ask them what are they under threat from? What are you worried about? Are your rituals and prayers under threat due to UCC? They are not. There is complete liberty of worship. Is there a threat to your mode of living or livelihood? None at all. It is as it is. Whether you want to celebrate your birthday or conduct a funeral, you have full freedom. You can celebrate your festivals, be it of any religion. Why is a Hindu, Shaivite, Vaishnav or a Radha Soami, Nirankari, Brahma Kumari, Kabir Panthi, Ambedkarite, Vishwakarma, Karwaite or Valmiki — why don’t they feel a threat due to this?
Because they believe that under UCC, there will be respect for all, appeasement for none. When there are so many different schools of thought in India and no one feels threatened, why do they feel threatened?
This means that this is a well-thought conspiracy to disrupt the peace and unity of this country. So the protest against CAA or UCC is unconstitutional and unjust because these are not unfair against anyone rather it assures equality, mutual respect and harmony to all. There can be no greater idea of humanity in practice otherwise, I give the example of Al Aqsa and others as well. Why have the Brahma Kumaris never protested? They also have a different identity. The Arya Samajis or Sanatanis never protested about their crisis of identity under UCC. We are there too. We never said we have a religious identity as well. What about that or how CAA can be a problem? There is none. Taking a particular religious community and trying to create a disruption— such is the situation, that these cases don’t even hold in court — but still, if they have to go they should approach the courts. Court is open to them. They can go.
If the Opposition thinks that this is justice, then they have no lack of resources. Get a lawyer and fight it out in a court of law. What is the need to create a noise about it or protest? What is the need to rebuke and create tensions and violence? These are anti-Constitution steps.
Q: Population control is being discussed in Assam. It is being talked about in other states as well. How far is it right according to your opinion?
A: Increasing population is not only a problem in India, but across the world. It is a universal problem. It is not a local or a country problem. Human population is exceeding the resources that are naturally available to us. Our country is a different case too. We have no lack of air, water, land— 4 percent of it is available in India whereas our population has increased 17 percent. So every government has been advocating for it. Forty years ago, the then government had brought the policy of ‘hum do, hamare do’. Why did they do it? Because increase in population was a problem and there were not enough resources so it was a slogan that they chose. At present, everyone is talking about the surplus of population. The media is talking about this as well.
If it is not a problem, then let the media say it out loud or let ThePrint say it. Do they have the courage to say it? Will they say it? No, they won’t. When you know the truth, why would you want to live in a false world? You should strive to live in the world of truth. Population is a problem and it should be controlled. So it is being talked about. Back in 1947, it had a population of 32-33 crores geographically, the same India now has a population of 140 crore.
What will you say about it? Was that right or is this right? Was that fair or is this? The terrain of right and wrong is one in which there should be discussion, not dispute. If within these resources, the population of a country is increasing, is it right to have 12-15 or 20 children? Or should you just have one. So when everyone is worried about division of resources so everyone can be educated, have food, live well, have cloth and medicine– what is necessary for that needs to be thought about. After all, hum do hamare do was a universal decision. Was it not? So now when some other party says it why do you communalise it? Why do you fundamentalise it? Why do you call it fundamentalist?
This is a global affliction. India too is dealing with this. Amid this, you should think, should you produce children so that they are unemployed or that they don’t have food to eat or become a criminal? When you reproduce a child, you think let them live well so we can be well too, they are educated and have a good life. But if crime is on a rise, if due to a lack of bread leading to lack of education, there has to be a way out. So the path that they have found is universally applicable. For the past 50 years, every government, be it central or state, has talked about this. The CM of any party has spoken about it so when it is a common problem for all, you should sit and maturely discuss a common solution to tackle the rise in population. How to increase resources and lessen population. This is the only solution.
Q: You are the patron of Rashtriya Muslim Manch. Your adversaries depict RSS as anti-Muslim. How do you see it?
All I will say is, may good sense prevail over them so they can be with truth. I pray to God, that those who put this blame — truth is that I have been around lakhs of Muslims, no one ever protested against me. They have discussed difficult topics that were vile in nature and I had no problem at all. All of this is right in front of you, so everyone should beware that unity is the basic need. Development is the basic need. For unity and development, there can be no harassment or disruption. Peace is the basic need and peace can only prevail when there is mutual respect so I pray that good sense prevails on them.