A.P.J Abdul Kalam was born in Rameswaram, Tamil Nadu, on 15 October, 1931. He rose through the ranks, leading key projects in defence and rocketry at DRDO and ISRO, and served as Chief Scientific Adviser to the Prime Minister from 1999 to 2002.
A visionary aerospace engineer who earned the moniker of ‘Missile Man of India’, Kalam served as the 11th President of India from 2002 to 2007, igniting a generation’s passion for science and self-reliance.
He died on 27 July, 2015, at the age of 83.
In this 2007 edition of Walk The Talk, Kalam engaged in an enriching conversation with ThePrint Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta, reflecting on his shift from President to “Citizen, Professor,” the importance of economic prosperity coupled with a strong value system for national growth, and his commitment to research, particularly thorium-based nuclear energy and work with the mentally challenged. He spoke with his trademark humility and frankness about the toughest moments of his presidency, including the Office of Profit Bill, his views on capital punishment, and why he preferred to travel light.
Here is a complete transcript of the interview, edited for clarity.
SG: Former President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam or just Citizen Kalam now?
APJ: All Citizen, Professor Kalam.
SG: Professor Kalam.
APJ: Delighted, delighted.
SG: As happy to be a Citizen, a Professor, as President. As happy to be in this modest place, in Delhi cant.
APJ: It’s a beautiful place.
SG: As in Rashtrapati Bhavan.
APJ: It’s a beautiful place. They have made it very liveable and the excellent environment.
SG: And you have as many birds here, as much birdsong.
APJ: As though all the peacocks have come.
SG: Peacocks have come, following you from there.
APJ: You can see. You see that?
SG: Absolutely, I think they follow your wishes and directions. Sir, tell me something, your first thoughts after five years in that very onerous and very privileged position.
APJ: Yes, my first thought is, you know, before reaching Rashtrapati Bhavan, I was teaching. So, almost re-entry, like re-entry phenomena.
SG: Like a missile re-entering.
APJ: It’s a re-entry phenomena. Immediately I went and met the students. Took their class in nanoscience, nanotechnology. A lot of questions. It was a beautiful experience I had. And then I went to, there is one rural university, Gandhi Gram. Right. There also, it’s a beautiful thing to see people, how they live there. The earning capacity is created. And I saw and talked to the students. They are unique students because that place I saw as an education with a purpose. Then I, nearly five days I was away. Then I came back to Delhi.
And Delhi is a very busy place for me. Yesterday I saw, there is a freedom society at Pune. Young people, college students and high school students. About nearly 30 people they came. You know why they came? They want me to come and settle down in Pune. They sent me 10,000 cards. You know? 10,000 cards they sent me. And then followed by, very creative people. I never seen such a creative group. So, each one, two or three people joined together. They had a programme. Some are interested in how do we educate people who cannot read and write. Some people, how to clean up the riverbeds. Very constructive work. How to remove the pain of the people.
SG: All they have to arrange for now is a bunch of peacocks. Dr. Kalam will go to Pune as well.
APJ: Now I have, of course I have to go there. But this is a new way, they came all the way to invite. And there was a beautiful interaction yesterday. And today of course I went to my favourite task, the research connected with mentally challenged people.
SG: But you know, you always managed to, you were never confined to Rashtrapati Bhavan. You were never confined by ceremony as well. You always managed to reach out. In fact if I remember, the first trip you took out after taking over as Rashtrapati, was to go to Gujarat.
APJ: Ah, you remember that.
SG: I remember that. And you know, you called the killings gruesome. For a president, for a new president, it was a very significant decision. Tell us a little bit about the thought process. Why and what happened?
APJ: You know, it looks to me we have the whole process, the differences of the people, you know, difference of the people to people. I was thinking where does it come from. One of the thing is economic weakness. That’s why I’m always advocating the economic prosperity, the higher the economic prosperity comes in, then you’ll find the differences in society, in their value system, differences in the way of thinking, differences in action, all will converge to the positive side if the economic prosperity comes in. This is the impression I got. I felt that India has to become a developed nation economically. Also, the people should have a value system. The return, when you return, so you will see the last few years I was promoting an equal value system.
SG: Sir, the reason I asked this question was that when it comes to your succession, a new debate came in, that the president should be a politician, a political figure, and vice president need not be a politician. Do you think those criteria are valid?
APJ: These are all old dated ideas.
SG: Sir, tell me, I remember, if I may tell you, we met many times, but one memory that sticks to my mind is when I was going to see Mr Gujral once, when he was Prime Minister, and you were standing outside his office in 7 RCR holding a clutch of files, and I think my appointment was a bit earlier, and when I came back half an hour later, you were still waiting with those files, and I was very apologetic, and I asked you, why are you waiting here, and you said, these files are important decisions, I’ll find one moment with the Prime Minister, and I said, oh, some new missiles are going up, and you said, no, some of my scientists’ promotion has been held up. So you dealt with the political system at that level, and suddenly you came and sat on top of the political and constitutional system. What were your biggest surprises in Rashtrapati Bhavan?
APJ: The surprise for me, you know, it’s a beautiful place. Finally, most of the bills have to come there for approval, and many appointments, very important appointments come there. I realized after some time, in a few months’ time, that you can make a change, you can make a change, anything, and you can, after all, if you are friendly with the government, the cabinet, and the cabinet members, the Prime Minister, Parliament.
SG: What was the toughest moment, or the toughest decision in five years?
APJ: Toughest moment, toughest moment, yes, Office of Profit Bill. Office of Profit Bill, when I saw that, it has come for my approval, I felt that I have to return it to Parliament. Nobody had that, first time I had to do that. Since I’m doing the first time in Parliament, previously, the People’s Representative Act was there, an ordinance came in Vajpayee ji’s time. I returned it to the cabinet. That’s a normal process, I returned, of course, with minor correction, they sent me, second time, President has signed. This one directly came to me from Parliament, I have to send back to Parliament. I know I’m doing the first time, what are the implications, but I have to do that, I did that. That’s the toughest decision.
SG: Did it give you a sleepless night?
APJ: Well, normally I go to bed very late, no problem.
SG: But it did. Did anything else give you a sleepless night?
APJ: Well, I, see, once, I have to, once, before taking a decision, see the pros and cons, and you go into detail. Once you take a decision, that’s closed, chapter is closed.
SG: Would it have also cost you a second term?
APJ: Well, I don’t care about that. That’s not the issue, that’s not the issue. See, second term, what I’m concerned with, the people, the people, they were upset.
SG: What was your biggest surprise when you learned to deal with the political system? A good surprise and a bad surprise?
APJ: See, one thing I found, that generally people rate the political system very bad. But it’s not true. The surprise I had is, in political system also, you had good human beings. This is the surprise I had. Because the intention is very good. I worked with two sets of political system. And both political system, I found there are very good human beings, with good intention. They may have constraints, carrying out the task. But definitely, their purity was there.
SG: If I can use your language a little bit, does our system have a critical mass of good people, our political system?
APJ: Critical mass still we have to achieve. We have to achieve critical mass. Particularly youth is coming up in a big way. I found in Parliament, certainly lot of young people have started coming in, and also qualified people. They can make a change. Negative is, there is, you know, the Parliament has to function.
SG: But there is a larger issue of your views on the death penalty. You said somewhere, that as the President, you can have only one view. After 25 July, you said there could be another view.
APJ: What I felt is, it needs a debate. Time has come. A national debate. On capital punishment. Because we are in the knowledge society. India is graduating, a developed society, a knowledge society graduating. Now in such a situation, environment we are going to have, whether India should have a capital punishment, or not, life imprisonment, we have to decide. This is what I was telling. Detailed debate is essential, both nationally and also in our Parliament.
SG: And on which side of that debate, does Citizen Kalam belong?
APJ: I will tell you. As soon as debate starts.
SG: Debate can start now. Although I can guess. I can guess that you are on the compassionate side of the debate.
APJ: Because after all, you know, in spite of all those things, when President signs, your life goes. You know that. It is a very painful process. So when you do that, you have to do it correctly. You have to do it correctly. Your conscience should say, yes.
SG: Sir, five years, you talked about entry and re-entry. You talked about India becoming a superpower. When you entered the office, we had fairly recently tested, the second time in Pokhran, and the missiles were going up. Isn’t it wonderful that, your re-entry into citizenry, has coincided with India’s achievement of nuclear legitimacy?
APJ: I don’t know what you call nuclear legitimacy, but I will say nuclear weapon state.
India graduated in 1998 May, as a nuclear weapon state. Whether some people agree or not, but we are. That is very important.
SG: And what has happened now? What does this deal do? Where does it take India’s status from 1998?
APJ: You see, I have a definite view on that. The whole agreement, is something focused, on uranium shortage, and also we want to open up, our programmes, internationally, so that our cooperation will come. This is one issue. But I have a feeling, I am telling my nuclear scientists, atomic scientists, that they should even, whether immediately they can launch, they have already launched, what is called thorium reactor process. Since thorium we have got abundant, we have one of the largest deposit, we have got thorium. Our scientists, nuclear scientists, have started working on thorium based reactor. It’s a very tough area, our research and development, because thorium is not a fissile material. You have to convert it into a fissile material. That means you need a fast breeder reactor.
That’s why a fast breeder reactor, number of them you need to come in. So I believe, in five to seven years time, India will become, will have a nuclear, the thorium-based nuclear reactor, for power generation.
SG: Do we see Professor Kalam, getting involved with that research?
APJ: No, the atomic, nuclear scientists, fantastic work they are doing. So all my best wishes to them, whenever they call me, I go to them.
SG: This deal, this 1, 2, 3, what’s your view? Is it good for India, or if it’s not good for India?
APJ: No, see, my feeling is, with the shortage of uranium. Since we are having number of reactors, nuclear reactor based on uranium, it looks to me, this is a logical conclusion. But that does not, prevent us.
SG: From going the thorium way.
APJ: Self-reliance. In, thorium based nuclear reactors. So, this is what, I will say, put all our might, our same scientists, and come out with a thorium-based reactor.
SG: If I can persist with this. Do you see this deal, as a deal about energy, or is it about, strategic interest?
APJ: I felt, it is a, energy, energy. After all, we have got a vision, nuclear scientists have got a vision. Every year, they want to add about, 1,000 megawatt power. So in that continuation, by 2020, they want to have a, 20,000 megawatt power. About 6,000-7,000 megawatt power. They want to graduate to 20,000 megawatt, but every year, they want to add 1,000. So, the whole mission is now, how do you get, 1000 megawatt, per year.
SG: In the long run, you see the two streams competing, uranium and thorium?
APJ: No, finally, once our own material, the our own material, thorium, we are abundant. So once you, you will succeed in that. I am very, I am very confident, our nuclear science, once they succeed it, the uranium-based reactor, still co-exists, but it will not be, new reactors, it will be all, thorium-based reactors
SG: And those don’t even have to be, safeguarded?
APJ: No, not at all. It is, it is your own development.
SG: What is the reason, you are so popular among people?
APJ: Ohh see, people love me, I love them. That’s all I can say.
SG: You know sir, Fali Nariman wrote an article, in The Indian Express.
APJ: Yeah, I saw that.
SG: When you demitted office. And he mentioned an incident. He said 53 of your family members, came to Rashtrapati Bhavan, and you told your staff, to keep a meticulous account, of what was being spent on them. Three and a half lakhs?
APJ: No, it is not three lakhs, but less. but I paid.
SG: But you paid?
APJ: I paid. Everything I paid.
SG: But you didn’t want anybody to know about this. It’s only for the Fali Nariman who spilled the beans.
APJ: No, it goes because the staff knows what happened.
SG: But does it mean that a President’s family can draw no benefit from the presidency?
APJ: Well, staying itself is a big benefit in the Rashtrapati Bhavan. They stay, they enjoy all the courtesy of the nature, courtesy of staying. But it doesn’t mean the Rashtrapati Bhavan is meant for all the expenditure.
SG: And sir, can I ask you a trick question now? Yes, sir. What is the reason or excuse for your bachelorhood?
APJ: Oh, this is the old bachelor. Brahmachari.
SG: Brahmachari.
APJ: Bachelor is quite a different form of Brahmachari. You see, this is, this happened by, I come from a big joint family. Big joint family. And from the joint family, we have so many great-grandchildren. My brother has got so many great-grandchildren they have. So it is just one fellow. I’m the last fellow in our family. My father’s last son. And so one fellow not getting married is not a big issue.
SG: No, but you know, there must have been some reason why you decided.
APJ: Well, I felt that I was lost in my endeavours, in my thoughts, in my mission, and that happiness was there. So it’s a continuous process.
SG: So in your case, sir, bachelorhood or Brahmacharya?
APJ: I told you, there’s a difference between Brahmacharya.
SG: Yes, so what did you choose? Brahmacharya, of course.
APJ: I see this environment, all of you see.
SG: Yes, it’s beautiful.
APJ: Look at that side.
SG: And sir, one question I’ve tried to ask you many times. Every time I visited you when you were President and you never answered it. But maybe you will do now. Do you have a view, or did you have a view, on Sonia Gandhi being sworn in as Prime Minister of India?
APJ: Well, these questions I have answered, already I have answered, because there’s a debate that was going on. And when both of them came, both Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, and such a debate was going on in the media, I also released a news item saying that both of them came, finally the recommendation was by the higher party, party maximum members were there, integrated way, and then I selected the Prime Minister.
SG: You selected? Selected one of the two?
APJ: No, no, selected the Prime Minister based on the party’s recommendation.
SG: You’ve often said that you came to Rashtrapati Bhavan with two suitcases, and you will, when you come back, go back, when you re-enter the real world, you will still carry two suitcases. What’s inside them?
APJ: Well, inside the two suitcases, both I can carry in my hand. Okay? Both I can carry.
One suitcase capable of meeting two days’ requirements. Suppose I want to go somewhere for two days, that suitcase will be, some newly published book will be inside, sometime my computer will be there, sometime some tape recorder will be there, and two days’ dress will be there, and minimum requirements.
SG: Professor Kalam, Citizen Kalam, what should I call you?
APJ: Well, now my profession is teaching, you can call me Professor.
SG: Professor Kalam, wonderful to have you on Walk The Talk.