It was in 1983 when India rolled out the project to build a new light combat aircraft as a replacement for Russian MiG 21s, which continue to fly despite being obsolete.
In episode 661 of #CutTheClutter, Shekhar Gupta looked at India's recent Rs 48,000-crore Tejas deal and also delved into the IAF's misadventures with indigenous fighter aircraft.
New aircraft comes with 4 major capability enhancements — mid-air refuelling, Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar, Electronic Warfare suite & Beyond Visual Range missile.
The defence ministry said procurement of the Mk1A version of Tejas aircraft, to be manufactured by HAL, will be a major boost to the 'Make in India' campaign.
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Rather than wasting precious funds on expensive Rafales , if those funds had all been put in Tejas, IAF would have had more operational Tejas than PAF has Jf 17………..unfortunately now where as PAF has about 140 operational JF 17 the 5 times bigger IAF has about 20 + Tejas in flying condition. As Feb 27th air battle showed JF 17 in combination with F 16 cannot be taken lightly !!!
TEJAS COULD BECOME THE BEST SINGLE ENGINE JET FIGHTER ON MARKET, SELLING AS BIG AS F-16, BUT…. AGAIN, THE WRONG DECISIONS ARE THE CHOSEN ONES!
IN ADVOCACY OF MAKING TEJAS AND IAF REALLY GREAT
I disagree about how the Mk1A is to be made and I consider the Mk2 will be a totally dumb solution.
Remember that Dassault was asked to propose solutions to improve Tejas…. And came with these solutions sooner than August 2017…
THE MAIN POINT IS :
In the wake of the offset, Safran created a 98kN version of the M88 engine….
The point is that this engine takes 1.1m³ less room than the GE F404 in Tejas Mk1/1A while being 138kg lighter… If mounted into Tejas Mk1/1A, while being as powerful as the F414 planned for Tejas Mk2, it leaves enough room to stuff as much internal fuel as in a Mirage-2000 or F-16… The point in creating the Mk2 is that Tejas Mk1/1A lacks thrust and internal fuel, but the solution HAL+ARDC come with is patterned on the Gripen-E : stretching the airframe for F414+fuel=>prototype=> No Mk.2 before 2032… M88/98kN is already validated by DRDO. Dassault even proposed internal mods allowing, at the same time you fit M88 and more fuel, you cut 500kg in empty weight and the airframe can take 11G+…
Another point : exporting Tejas requires USA’s approval and F414 is fully built in the USA… French engine maker Safran is in JV with HAL for decades… They built most of Jaguars’ engines together. The M88 can be made in India and India will be able to export Tejas without US’ blessing! It would simplify logistics as Rafale uses the M88 too…. and… Using an aircraft with F414 costs $12,000/hour/engine… Using M88 costs $5,000-6,000/hour/engine…. Using the future Mk.2 would cost about $6M/year, more than a Rafale. If the M88/98kN is used, if Rafale does the job of three F-16s, Tejas will do the job of two F-16s for $3M/yea/unit while F-16 costs $11.4 millions/year!
The F414 in intensive use can make 4 mission/24h… M88 in normal use : 5-6 missions. In intensive use : 10-11 missions…
So you end with the same thrust as a 8t Gripen-E or 7.8t Mirage-2000-9 while weighting 6,1t . Gripen-E has 5.3t payload, Mirage-2000-9 has 6.8t payload
Add to this, Thales came with a standalone version of SPECTRA’s active stealth for Tejas,
As well as a RBE2/AA radar modified to fit in Tejas nose, so a more poweful radar than Tejas Mk1A’s Elta EL/M-2052 and it’ll make it easy to integrate the deadly Meteor missile. As we are, OSF-IT is a 2nd gen QWIP so Tejas would detect a F-22 from further than the Meteor’s max range…
Dassault estimates a cost per unit of $45M/unit, it’s $6M than Tejas Mk1/1A but since you spare $2-3M a year in cost of use, after 2-3 years, the Tejas/M88 is cheaper than Mk1A…
I took a look at how the armed forces in Asia+Oceania are geared and funded as well as the GDPs… Well,, considering some well known country acts with more and more bellicosity, well, there is a need as well as the potential economics for … more than 2000 Tejas in the Indo-Pacific region, thanks to the low cost of use of a single engined aircraft with M88, even some countries with no jet fighters can sustain a significant fleet, e.g. the Philippines, New-Zealand, Vietnam, Singapore, Taiwan or Indonesia can absolutely afford 8 squadrons…
Since Dassault now is also an Indian company, you cab even propose Super-Tejas+Rafale
HOW THE SAFRAN M88 ENGINE CAN SAVE IAF!!!!!
———————————————————————
You have to understand that the costs of use of both MiG-29 and Su-30MKI are tremendous : a MiG-29 costs $13 millions a year while Su-30 is over 15 millions, their engines need frequent overhauls and you’re happy when they reach 3000 hours before having to trash them… Actually, the biggest in costs of use comes from the engines and, if the M88 is smaller than a GE F404/414, it’s also smaller than the MiG-29’s Klimov RD-33… and M88/91kN or 98kN are a little more powerful than RD-33… Bingo, M88 can reduce the cost of use of MiG-29, as well as its pretty short range by installing it together with additional fuel tanks on a cradle that will fit into MiG-29! The cost of use of MiG-29 can be reduced to $10-12k/hour=$4.8-5.7M/year instead of $13M.
This means $619.2-735.3 millions a year instead of $1.677 billion a year for the fleet of 129 MiG-29
Then, the Saturn AL-31FP on Su-30MKI has a 122.6kN wet thrust for 90cm intake diameter and 128cm exhaust diameter… The M88 can be delivered in any power up to 115kN within 18 months after the order, slightly less, but also… M88 weights 623kg less than an AL-31F…. And, although no more on catalogue, Safran used to propose a vectored thrust option for M88, just like the Su-30MKI has! It’d likely cost $12-15k/h due to bigger thrust, nevertheless, Su-13MKI would end cheaper to use than a A-10 ($16.5k/h) or F-16 ($23k/h), not as expensive as a F-15E ($32k/h) or Typhoon ($40k/h) ($15.36-19.2M/year)
This means $1.572-2097 millions a year instead of $4.193-5.242 billion a year for the fleet of 273 Su-30MKI
M88/98kN can also reduce the hourly cost of Mirage-2000 to $6k/h => $2.88M annual cost (same as improved Tejas) => $130M for the M-2k fleet.
A squadron of 18 Tejas/M88-98kN would yearly cost the quarter of a MG-29 one with a spending of $54M and would have performance on par with MiG-35 and Mirage-2000-9 (UAE version with 6.8t payload), the operational capability of 2.25 F-16 and stealth+ant-stealth measures allowing to challenge J-20, FC-31, F-35 or F-22!!!!
For sure, it wouldn’t have the capabilities in rabnge or payload a Rafale brings but would definitively ruin most of grim projects. With a Make in India Rafale, India may even sell Super-Tejas+Rafale packages, then providing full defensive+offensive capabilities, Rafale is even technically capable to carry the huge BrahMos, even submarines…
India can do REALLY BIG and become a major player, just by taking the right decisions.
Moreover, the French are very supportive since they don’t want an unipolar world as in US or Chinese POV, and they’re OK for a non zero-sum game. Time to start thinking out of the box : if such a Tejas can be provided at $45M/unit, it can end with 200-300 sales a year and by 2030, more than 2000 Tejas into the Indo-Asia-Pacific area, each of them able to challenge a full PLAAF/PLANAF squadron. 180 Tejas can carry more Meteor BVRAAMs than there are combat aircraft in PLAAF+PLANAF in a single flight with an annual cost of use of $540 millions. At $1.62 billion for 2 squadrons, even the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Bangladesh or New-Zealand can consider inducting 10 squadrons into 5 years then afford to use them for decades….
WAKE UP!
Tejas is an antique airframe of 1984 specs contracted to France De-Assault. Its not optimized for performance. With dozens of global vendors to stitch up, its a mixture of non optimized non integrated platform. Cost is extremely high for a LCA, double of F16, 1.5 of SU30MKI that are both much better.
It will not able to match 30yrs younger PAF JF17 that was designed by Col Yang Wei, who also designed J20. He was given task to make one that is optimized specifically for PAF vs India. Low cost, highly equipped with BVR PL10 & 15, in module that can be upgraded.
Moreover JF17 already in mass production and operational with progress to Blk3. Whereas Tejas is still not in production, it may take another 5~10yrs per India speed. By then its like another MiG21, completely obsolete and a liability that bleed IAF resources.
You obviously don’t know about the subject: there is no company named “De-Assault” in France, it’s Dassault. The Tejas design was dev’d in parallel to the Rafale and the SOKO Novi-Avon by them and it’s not more antique than the F-22 design which is contemporary! F-15, F-16 and Su-30 are much older designs.
JF-17 reuses the airframe of MiG-21, some elements from the J-8 and stretched wings/tail from F-16. As for the J-20 taking elements from MiG-1.44 and F-35, col Yang Wei designed nothing, he does Frankenstein aircraft and everybody knowing aviation knows that all attempts at making Frankensteins taking elements from several aircraft ended with fiascos see Rockwell XFV-12.
BTW, JF-17 block.3 will have the same AESA radar as J-10C, and J-10C was ridiculed by Gripen-C during drills in Thailand, despite Gripen-C only has a PESA radar…
Tejas Mk1 costs $23 millions. Mk1A will cost $39M. JF-17 block2 costs $32-33M and block3 will surely be more expensive.
It’s up to India to listen to Dassault’s advising and make Tejas a mini-Rafale that can, jut like its elder brother, ravage F-22, J-20, FC-31, Su-57, Su-35, F-35, J-10C, J-11D, J-15, J-16, Typhoon, etc…
The FOC Tejas Mk 1 also has Mid air refueling capability.
TEJAS Atmanirbhar approval is a proud moment for INDIA; SIMILAR TO THE BIGGEST vaccine inoculation drive launched today across India against COVID19 or WUHAN PANDEMIC VIRUS.
More than Pm modi. It is late shri parikkar who deserves the credit.
After Antony nearly killed the project with his apathy and neglect. It was parikkar who made this a reality. Would’ve been great if he lived to see this deal.
Rather than wasting precious funds on expensive Rafales , if those funds had all been put in Tejas, IAF would have had more operational Tejas than PAF has Jf 17………..unfortunately now where as PAF has about 140 operational JF 17 the 5 times bigger IAF has about 20 + Tejas in flying condition. As Feb 27th air battle showed JF 17 in combination with F 16 cannot be taken lightly !!!
TEJAS COULD BECOME THE BEST SINGLE ENGINE JET FIGHTER ON MARKET, SELLING AS BIG AS F-16, BUT…. AGAIN, THE WRONG DECISIONS ARE THE CHOSEN ONES!
IN ADVOCACY OF MAKING TEJAS AND IAF REALLY GREAT
I disagree about how the Mk1A is to be made and I consider the Mk2 will be a totally dumb solution.
Remember that Dassault was asked to propose solutions to improve Tejas…. And came with these solutions sooner than August 2017…
THE MAIN POINT IS :
In the wake of the offset, Safran created a 98kN version of the M88 engine….
The point is that this engine takes 1.1m³ less room than the GE F404 in Tejas Mk1/1A while being 138kg lighter… If mounted into Tejas Mk1/1A, while being as powerful as the F414 planned for Tejas Mk2, it leaves enough room to stuff as much internal fuel as in a Mirage-2000 or F-16… The point in creating the Mk2 is that Tejas Mk1/1A lacks thrust and internal fuel, but the solution HAL+ARDC come with is patterned on the Gripen-E : stretching the airframe for F414+fuel=>prototype=> No Mk.2 before 2032… M88/98kN is already validated by DRDO. Dassault even proposed internal mods allowing, at the same time you fit M88 and more fuel, you cut 500kg in empty weight and the airframe can take 11G+…
Another point : exporting Tejas requires USA’s approval and F414 is fully built in the USA… French engine maker Safran is in JV with HAL for decades… They built most of Jaguars’ engines together. The M88 can be made in India and India will be able to export Tejas without US’ blessing! It would simplify logistics as Rafale uses the M88 too…. and… Using an aircraft with F414 costs $12,000/hour/engine… Using M88 costs $5,000-6,000/hour/engine…. Using the future Mk.2 would cost about $6M/year, more than a Rafale. If the M88/98kN is used, if Rafale does the job of three F-16s, Tejas will do the job of two F-16s for $3M/yea/unit while F-16 costs $11.4 millions/year!
The F414 in intensive use can make 4 mission/24h… M88 in normal use : 5-6 missions. In intensive use : 10-11 missions…
So you end with the same thrust as a 8t Gripen-E or 7.8t Mirage-2000-9 while weighting 6,1t . Gripen-E has 5.3t payload, Mirage-2000-9 has 6.8t payload
Add to this, Thales came with a standalone version of SPECTRA’s active stealth for Tejas,
As well as a RBE2/AA radar modified to fit in Tejas nose, so a more poweful radar than Tejas Mk1A’s Elta EL/M-2052 and it’ll make it easy to integrate the deadly Meteor missile. As we are, OSF-IT is a 2nd gen QWIP so Tejas would detect a F-22 from further than the Meteor’s max range…
Dassault estimates a cost per unit of $45M/unit, it’s $6M than Tejas Mk1/1A but since you spare $2-3M a year in cost of use, after 2-3 years, the Tejas/M88 is cheaper than Mk1A…
I took a look at how the armed forces in Asia+Oceania are geared and funded as well as the GDPs… Well,, considering some well known country acts with more and more bellicosity, well, there is a need as well as the potential economics for … more than 2000 Tejas in the Indo-Pacific region, thanks to the low cost of use of a single engined aircraft with M88, even some countries with no jet fighters can sustain a significant fleet, e.g. the Philippines, New-Zealand, Vietnam, Singapore, Taiwan or Indonesia can absolutely afford 8 squadrons…
Since Dassault now is also an Indian company, you cab even propose Super-Tejas+Rafale
HOW THE SAFRAN M88 ENGINE CAN SAVE IAF!!!!!
———————————————————————
You have to understand that the costs of use of both MiG-29 and Su-30MKI are tremendous : a MiG-29 costs $13 millions a year while Su-30 is over 15 millions, their engines need frequent overhauls and you’re happy when they reach 3000 hours before having to trash them… Actually, the biggest in costs of use comes from the engines and, if the M88 is smaller than a GE F404/414, it’s also smaller than the MiG-29’s Klimov RD-33… and M88/91kN or 98kN are a little more powerful than RD-33… Bingo, M88 can reduce the cost of use of MiG-29, as well as its pretty short range by installing it together with additional fuel tanks on a cradle that will fit into MiG-29! The cost of use of MiG-29 can be reduced to $10-12k/hour=$4.8-5.7M/year instead of $13M.
This means $619.2-735.3 millions a year instead of $1.677 billion a year for the fleet of 129 MiG-29
Then, the Saturn AL-31FP on Su-30MKI has a 122.6kN wet thrust for 90cm intake diameter and 128cm exhaust diameter… The M88 can be delivered in any power up to 115kN within 18 months after the order, slightly less, but also… M88 weights 623kg less than an AL-31F…. And, although no more on catalogue, Safran used to propose a vectored thrust option for M88, just like the Su-30MKI has! It’d likely cost $12-15k/h due to bigger thrust, nevertheless, Su-13MKI would end cheaper to use than a A-10 ($16.5k/h) or F-16 ($23k/h), not as expensive as a F-15E ($32k/h) or Typhoon ($40k/h) ($15.36-19.2M/year)
This means $1.572-2097 millions a year instead of $4.193-5.242 billion a year for the fleet of 273 Su-30MKI
M88/98kN can also reduce the hourly cost of Mirage-2000 to $6k/h => $2.88M annual cost (same as improved Tejas) => $130M for the M-2k fleet.
A squadron of 18 Tejas/M88-98kN would yearly cost the quarter of a MG-29 one with a spending of $54M and would have performance on par with MiG-35 and Mirage-2000-9 (UAE version with 6.8t payload), the operational capability of 2.25 F-16 and stealth+ant-stealth measures allowing to challenge J-20, FC-31, F-35 or F-22!!!!
For sure, it wouldn’t have the capabilities in rabnge or payload a Rafale brings but would definitively ruin most of grim projects. With a Make in India Rafale, India may even sell Super-Tejas+Rafale packages, then providing full defensive+offensive capabilities, Rafale is even technically capable to carry the huge BrahMos, even submarines…
India can do REALLY BIG and become a major player, just by taking the right decisions.
Moreover, the French are very supportive since they don’t want an unipolar world as in US or Chinese POV, and they’re OK for a non zero-sum game. Time to start thinking out of the box : if such a Tejas can be provided at $45M/unit, it can end with 200-300 sales a year and by 2030, more than 2000 Tejas into the Indo-Asia-Pacific area, each of them able to challenge a full PLAAF/PLANAF squadron. 180 Tejas can carry more Meteor BVRAAMs than there are combat aircraft in PLAAF+PLANAF in a single flight with an annual cost of use of $540 millions. At $1.62 billion for 2 squadrons, even the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Bangladesh or New-Zealand can consider inducting 10 squadrons into 5 years then afford to use them for decades….
WAKE UP!
Brother,
You analysis and information is of tremendous help… Eye opener
Yes from Atal to Manmohan to Modi and all the researchers, scientists from DRDO, L&T, HAL e.t.c
Tejas is an antique airframe of 1984 specs contracted to France De-Assault. Its not optimized for performance. With dozens of global vendors to stitch up, its a mixture of non optimized non integrated platform. Cost is extremely high for a LCA, double of F16, 1.5 of SU30MKI that are both much better.
It will not able to match 30yrs younger PAF JF17 that was designed by Col Yang Wei, who also designed J20. He was given task to make one that is optimized specifically for PAF vs India. Low cost, highly equipped with BVR PL10 & 15, in module that can be upgraded.
Moreover JF17 already in mass production and operational with progress to Blk3. Whereas Tejas is still not in production, it may take another 5~10yrs per India speed. By then its like another MiG21, completely obsolete and a liability that bleed IAF resources.
The price tag of Tejas can buy Rafael or F35.
You obviously don’t know about the subject: there is no company named “De-Assault” in France, it’s Dassault. The Tejas design was dev’d in parallel to the Rafale and the SOKO Novi-Avon by them and it’s not more antique than the F-22 design which is contemporary! F-15, F-16 and Su-30 are much older designs.
JF-17 reuses the airframe of MiG-21, some elements from the J-8 and stretched wings/tail from F-16. As for the J-20 taking elements from MiG-1.44 and F-35, col Yang Wei designed nothing, he does Frankenstein aircraft and everybody knowing aviation knows that all attempts at making Frankensteins taking elements from several aircraft ended with fiascos see Rockwell XFV-12.
BTW, JF-17 block.3 will have the same AESA radar as J-10C, and J-10C was ridiculed by Gripen-C during drills in Thailand, despite Gripen-C only has a PESA radar…
Tejas Mk1 costs $23 millions. Mk1A will cost $39M. JF-17 block2 costs $32-33M and block3 will surely be more expensive.
It’s up to India to listen to Dassault’s advising and make Tejas a mini-Rafale that can, jut like its elder brother, ravage F-22, J-20, FC-31, Su-57, Su-35, F-35, J-10C, J-11D, J-15, J-16, Typhoon, etc…
The FOC Tejas Mk 1 also has Mid air refueling capability.
That is true
TEJAS Atmanirbhar approval is a proud moment for INDIA; SIMILAR TO THE BIGGEST vaccine inoculation drive launched today across India against COVID19 or WUHAN PANDEMIC VIRUS.
This is something we have to give credit to the PM. He pushed hard to make this a reality.
More than Pm modi. It is late shri parikkar who deserves the credit.
After Antony nearly killed the project with his apathy and neglect. It was parikkar who made this a reality. Would’ve been great if he lived to see this deal.
very True