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What to write it’s the army top brass who are responsible for the destitute of armed forces. I know at personal capacity both IAS and Armed forces officers and in my view AF officers are way beyond babus but the issue is babus Over last 70yrs mastered the art of sycophancy especially towards politicians and there allegiance gets defined in very initial days of service and politicians pull them up and hence they command more respect and power in the eyes of civilian common people. Military coup is required in India as almost all politicians and babus are corrupt after so this question itself will become obsolete. Strong generals are required… even after creating CDS post a seasoned general has to report to defence sexy.. how it’s justified.. ideally Gen. Rawat shouldn’t have accepted puppet role while offered..useless post without power..
Mr armed forces are actually depleting alot of budget amount for what. Only because of Pakistan and china in the borders. Look at sweden or switzerland or germany. Their neighboura are tolerant so they need no army big at indias size but every countey need civil administration to rule and to make country prosper army is waste of money (but in indian case needed) but civil administration is worth it
Bro there is huge life difference between between AF officers and civil officers AF officers do not live in ACs and in their comfort zone, their lives are very tough
And one can IAS or IPS by one’s constant preparation but can not pass SSB because it is natural and no one can prepare oneself for it because it is natural and toughest process.
JUST HEAR MR.
YOU AND YOUR WHOLE ANCESTORS NEVER PASS A SINGLE EXAM PAPER OF GS-1 AND AS LIKE GS-1 OTHER FIVE GS PAPER ARE ALSO ASKED TO WRITE IN DESCRIPTIVE MANNER.
AND WHEN RESULTS ARE ANNOUNCED TOPPER NEVER REACHED TO ACHIEVE 53 %.MARKS OF AGGREGATE WHICH IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT AS COMPARED TO A SINGLE A VERY AVERAGE SSB PROCEDURE.
SO NEVER COMPARE AGAIN THEIR LAVISH LIVING STYLE OF IAS IPS ETC. BECAUSE THIS IS THEIR RIGHT OF HARDWORK.
JUST HEAR MR.
YOU NEVER PASS A SINGLE EXAM PAPER OF GS-1 AND AS LIKE GS-1 OTHER FIVE GS PAPER ARE ALSO ASKED TO WRITE IN DESCRIPTIVE MANNER.
AND WHEN RESULTS ARE ANNOUNCED TOPPER NEVER REACHED TO ACHIEVE 53 %.MARKS OF AGGREGATE WHICH IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT AS COMPARED TO A SINGLE A VERY AVERAGE SSB PROCEDURE.
SO NEVER COMPARE AGAIN THEIR LAVISH LIVING STYLE OF IAS IPS ETC. BECAUSE THIS IS THEIR RIGHT OF HARDWORK.
Well, if Army, is waste of money then what ever the money that the civil services officer or civilian authorities are making will remain as dream that never comeS true.
Sir with due respect I will just say that today sp of my district refused to meet me at the time which he gave me one day before…that’s irony of a soldier..what else i can say ….that’s why we look for clear demarcation of rank structure
If the BJP put this article on social media as a way to guage the public response as to whether Armed forces are equal or below the “babudom”. The answer is very clear from all the comments above… Just mugging up and cramming information to regurgitate the same on paper might get you a group A post but to become a leader it takes more than that. Only a well rounded personality can be a leader. In a classroom it is not necessary that the bookish 1st rank holder is made the prefect or School Captain. The armed forces officers are all-rounders with the required brains, brawn and most importantly the 15 OLQs or the officer like qualities that the SSB tests them for after the UPSC exam. Most of the comparison is with the written exams conducted by the UPSC for defence and AIS. The emphasis is not on knowledge ,ability to cram information but on reasoning ability, effective intelligence and a general knowledge I case of armed forces as far as written expression goes. However it is the SSB that sets them apart from the AIS where a candidate is tested for the OLQs. Either you have it or you don’t. Many SSB drop outs make it as IAS and IPS the same may be true if an SSB tests is conducted for IAS aspirants. But a vast majority may not make it. Since the quality you look for in SSB is a result of all-round development.
So the verdict is clear… Let the armed fit be given their rightful due being the last resort when the civil services fail and not let the simmering discontent make way for a situation that is not desirable for a nascent and vibrant democracy.
Everyone likes to think that they are more intelligent than everyone else . It comforts their ego and self -perception . This a very common statement made by people all over that the people who are steeped in academia have only ‘bookish’ knowledge and it is i who is the repositor of ‘real’ knowledge . This is something which cannot substantiated and is mostly said by the individual out of his/her sheer ignorance . The truth of the matter is army and ias are completely different services and need no comparison with each other .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things has always been more powerful on paper , and forces are ppl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things have always been more powerful on paper , and forces are ppl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things have always been more powerful on paper , and forces are hippl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
MLA Sahab,
The day the govt starts looking beyond their nose, the problem will get sorted out.
The politicians view need not be the correct view.
It seems apparent the BJP as a govt does not deserve an exemplary Army as the Indian army.
History has not forgotten the time when some invader came to Gujarat and plundered our temples 16 times. There was a Gujarati king who had not planned for anything but trade.
I sincerely hope we are not heading in that direction.
Take care
KR
Army men are far better than burocrates.Army men should be kept over all other personnel.Army is most dedicated n honest in the country..sacrifice their life just for us.In india where burocrates are indulge in politics rather than serving people.Civil servant living VIP lifestyle..there should be balance.I know numerous cases where they show their power on poor people on petty issues like overtaking their car or not giving them side etc..it’s irony that nation’s top most heroes are treated low.I am sure if army personnel given same power and privilege in civil society then there should be balance in society n civic matters.
For those who say that military & civil officers have different roles then how is the justification when civil administration fails & Situation is taken over by military & brought back to desired results
One must be aware that the word management is derived from military science. Civil servant can never match the administration of military service even in a single field.
Armd Forces’ demand to restructure their ranks to keep pace with time must be fulfilled & civil servants also honour this without making any hue & cry.
Army ranks seeking equivalance to civilian ranks. Here the author is discussing army’s cadre management.I want to tell one, forget officers post even the military top officials till date failed to manage and give justice to the subordinate posts. Defence civilian direct entry JEs Group B posts with degrees and higher educations filtered through national level exams are compared to naiks and havaldar’s and JCO’s with two years diploma and metric pass standards. Where’s the justice now. Have the author seen those gaps in their grade pays before discussing here the grade pays and ranks ? A direct entry civilian JE having degree or higher education and grade pay 4200 is equivalent to Naik or havaldar JE having grade pay 2400 and 2800 respectively is well justified with 2 years diploma, really with 2 years diploma or 10 th pass qualification what a joke, Then civilian Asst Director equivalent to Major and deputy director equvivalent to full colonel and Director equivalent to Lt General is also justified. Poor management of cadre of defence civilians is degrading their organisation’s esteem. Give justice to get justice, then we will disscuss officers entries.
With due Respect to Indian Armed Forces.
Another Shoddy attempt to justify government’s failure and wilful inaction by an ex military officer turned politican. Dear Author please take an objective and true view of the stark situation, by your statement then while Army ( an expeditionary force) is wrong in asking for parity, the remnants of colonial babugiri IAS and IPS are a notch above the rest. While one can think of a number of reasons that the argument for army officers to remain content with shameful second grade treatment is void but Am sure wasting precious breath on an article written purely either out of being bored( lack of depth suggest a thus) or just being a political mouthpiece with disdain for the nation’s defence forces would be a crime. It would hold the author in good stead if one is sent to areas like J&K and North East where he can experience the so called friction first hand. One would also be considered wise if all these shenigans could be restricted to political gimmickery and forces be kept out of it and let someone for ONCE GIVE officers their due.
Jai Hind.
An IAS or IPS has to look after many things where as officers with same tenure in defence, can’t even take decisions. There is a lot of difference between defence and civil services. In army every time officers only crying for equality with civil counter parts. They never ever care or listen to PBORs. Sgt of technical group who was having 5000 basic was degraded to pay band one. Where as there counterparts in railway are in pay band 2. Air force technicians are far more burdened and have to deal with sofisticated technology. But this thing was never been hilighted. Be proud to be the first to stand Infront of the enemy.
Civil services Officers and Armed Fotces Officers have different roles ,we can’t compare .However civil services have the cushion of ministers,MLAs, councillors,need not make quick decisions can always refer or defer decisions,where as military Officers do not have such luxury.Now coming to doing away with Brigadier rank, Military will convince the Government and have its way like they had already done away with second lieutenant rank few years back.Time scale promotion is already in force for Armed Force Officer’s so Government is benevolent to Armed Forces Officer.Where as the plight of men in OR rank is never considered,Army gives only one promotion for other ranks most men leave service as Naik or Havildar ,they should be at least given rank of JCO after putting in 15 yrs service.This will lift the morale of ranks rather than doing away with Brigadier rank.
I fully advocate the views of Col Poswal.
Secondly, the gradual degradation of military ranks is a result of political negligence & ignorance of military leadership also.
A brigadier used to be a chief secretary of a state in British era. We can imagine the how much degradation has been afflicted since then. In the pretext of democracy political class always wants to subjugate armed forces to less abled civil administration, which is not justified at all. Ultimately armed forces are also responsible to political leadership.
The step taken by General Bipin Rawat speaks a volume of his leadership towards the welfare of the force, their motivation & requirement.
I fully advocate the upgradation of military ranks in parity with less abled civil servants if not above them.
, a sub major is equivalent to an inspector/sho of police, go back into history, a Capt in the royal British army was made superintendent of police, he was and is even today reffered to as captaan saab, rightly so. The ranks are taken from the military, you can keep adding any no of ? on your uniform or on number plate, very simple, the ranks worn on the shoulder in the civil is equivalent to one rank lower worn in the military, thus an SP is equivalent of a Capt, period. And so on, also both are class 1 officers, promotion etc is peculiar to each service, so length of service is what decides equivalence. Dig deep into warrant of prec, a Brig is equivalent of a divisional commissioner IN HIS OWN DIVISION, . Also please do not discuss caliber, when everything in a city collapses where there are heads in all departments,. From law and order to railways to electricity to water to…….. just one col commanding one battalion is expected to take over and get things on line……
The author seems totally clueless about whether he supports the lack of parity or not. Sad that he is unaware that both come through UPSC. If it has not happened overnight, then he could have discussed the merits and demerits of the factors that led to the gap. If a government wants to play this game of degrading the armed forces then it should let the environment know that young, brilliant and dynamic younsters should avoid joining the services in order to avoid frustration of being a second rung falsely glorified heroes.
A very poorly researched article.
Nice piece of work , but it seems that author is ill informed or poorly briefed by his masters. Author failed to identify that the selection procedure for ARMED FORCES NDA & CDS is organised by UPSC in a much similar way of Civil Services.
You said it truly…The army officers cannot be compared to IAS n IPS because Military officers are far above these so called babus..who knows nothing but sifting of files. . The multi dimensional roles played by military officers are commendable…be it a flood situation..civil unrest …natural disasters…just drop of hat call the military…What the babies are failing to tackle the situation…n their incompetence is very clear to all Indians who have eyes to see…
I know a IAS officer who mugged up things and got high scoring in written n a minimum marks in interview will get him IPS atleast.. I say military officers are far far superior than the so called IAS/ IPS officers..
Let the government of India stop deploying the army for internal security let the I A DS and I PcS officers look after the the internal problems of the country
Then the question of remuneration comparison will not be there
The only question is are the civil service officers competent to do so
i think the member of parliament inspite of his association with defence related portfolios have hardly any idea about rank structure and selection procedure of armed forces,even army officers are recruited through UPSC exams,for NDA the qualification is 12th std pass and at NDA they go through their graduation alongwith basic military trg and the degree is awarded by JNU, and for IMA & OTA(SHORT SERVICE) the qualification is graduate(min),therefore qualification wise army offrs are no less educated/qualified than their civvy counterparts,and even during service army officees undergoes carrier courses in MTECH,and other streams,and so far the rank of captain is concerned its not the second in commands rank,the 2ic is generalyy a lieutenat colonel or a major in any army unit.
The Military is Supreame as They are Guardians of the People The Soldier,but in Civil Govt they withdraw like parents allow freedom of Growth to children and interfear only when childten go wrong fall and in danger
This does Not mean inferior.
The problem is since Civil by demands make all claims so they go above also demand all Martial Privilages
Even Higher ranks in Civil be Done away IAS All.Even Dr C Krishnadas Unpaid Pension /my father never claimed even Hydrabad Army Service such as on Hard duties.
Military Not only Paid Highest but made use for Godly Purposes Not for War though Now no way But to be Ready till World Govt and even after as Internal Problems also may come till Mahabali rule Established by Martial Law
Chief Martial Law Administrator
Spoken like a true politician. Blame it all on military and take no action. What was done by the parliamentary committee? Netas making money through bureaucrats and hence bureaucrats pampered. Author says about separate pay commission- did govt approve it despite promising? Selective sidelining of military and then blaming the military. Shameful. Military working with cadre approved as per 1947 despite increase in the requirements and expectations. Spoken like an idiot who has worked on the finger tips of babus…
Another Shoddy attempt to justify government’s failure and wilful inaction by an ex military officer turned politican. Dear Author please take an objective and true view of the stark situation, by your statement then while Army ( an expeditionary force) is wrong in asking for parity, the remnants of colonial babugiri IAS and IPS are a notch above the rest. While one can think of a number of reasons that the argument for army officers to remain content with shameful second grade treatment is void but Am sure wasting precious breath on an article written purely either out of being bored( lack of depth suggest a thus) or just being a political mouthpiece with disdain for the nation’s defence forces would be a crime. It would hold the author in good stead if one is sent to areas like J&K and North East where he can experience the so called friction first hand. One would also be considered wise if all these shenigans could be restricted to political gimmickery and forces be kept out of it and let someone for ONCE GIVE officers their due.
Jai Hind.
Author doesn’t seem to be thorough with the subject. He has wasted entire article revolving around one or two arguments and has made it utterly devoid of any substantiation with logical points. He obviously doesn’t understand and doesn’t have adequate knowledge on the subject to comment or articulate. Or he may be deliberately trying to downplay the reality or facts of the matter. I failed to stretch my imagination to understand the source of his knowledge or experience on the subject. Let’s be more honest to our literary manifestations.
Armed forces pay commission is to be set up. Armed forces officers please Do not compare with civilians either state or central cadre.In any case they are in lower level .only thing they think they are only the Government and files are with them bais has crept into the process of pay revisions.pay of the armed forces officers should be above civil servants.
The author seems totally clueless about whether he supports the lack of parity or not. Sad that he is unaware that both come through UPSC. If it has not happened overnight, then he could have discussed the merits and demerits of the factors that led to the gap. If a government wants to play this game of degrading the armed forces then it should let the environment know that young, brilliant and dynamic younsters should avoid joining the services in order to avoid frustration of being a second rung falsely glorified heroes.
The problem is the officers in defence forces are not selected only through UPSC (i.e NDA or CDSE). There are multiple selection processes to induct officers in the armed forces, for example AFCAT for Airforce. At times people who are not eligible to clear the airmen selection test are inducted as officers in the armed forces, because they are the son and daughters of the defence officers. SSB is run by their uncle’s and they get the leadership qualities genetically! You would be amused to know about the responsibilities these so called class one officers are entrusted with at Unit level. Officer IC Airforce Wife Welfare Association (AFFWA), Officer IC CSD Canteen, Officer IC Sports, Officer IC MT Section, Officer IC airmen mess. And behold they compare themselves to IAS and IPS officer…….And to assist them there are number of warrant officers and men…Even in AFWAA! At time I have seen in a Airforce unit the senior officers out number the MWOs that is the senior most rank of airmen.
The demand of the defence officers to make them at par with IAS and IPS is genuine…It will be prudent to include a separate cadre like Indian Defence Service in UPSC exam…Let them clear the same exam which an IAS or IPS qualifies. And there should not be more then 2 commissioned officer for unit strength of 1000 men. There should also be a direct induction at JCO level (i.e group B services) who will assist the officers on the ground level.
Believe me, this will end an era of slavery in the defence forces.
We have surplus officers. The portfolio that could be handled by a JCO or Havildar is hijacked by these so called officers just to creat an impression that there is an acute shortage of officers in the armed forces.The shortage of men at the level of Sepoy and Havildar is never projected.
Anyone, with an average IQ can easily observe the things that I have mentioned above. The parity of defence officers with IAS and IPS is nothing but a Joke.
Good, you are a BJP MLA. When election will approach closure, then you would think about surgical strikes which is happening for last many years.
I think, you are not a defence analyst. You might have seen some army trucks and buses around you and pen down those things.
You as a MLA OR MP get a pension for lifetime even get elected for a term. Why?? Why corrupted lot is political leader and then IAS lobby????
We dont make comparison with IAS or IPS but what we deserve, we should get.
Dear Manas
Whatever happens in India is through Govts approval and there are lot of studies going on in various feilds and the kind of interest you seem to show going deep into IC Mess, IC x, Y, Z Shows the amount of hatred that you have… You got to understand that junior ranks have ACP I guess in the armed forces that you get the pay of the next rank even if you don’t have the vacancies. So the officers should come out saying that airmen /sailorz/Jawans shouldn’t be given this… Please have some decency in supporting your own because it is not your uncles or their uncles organisation. Secondly you seem to be misinformed regarding career opportunities… You get an ex serviceman quota and the other organizations around the country don’t get that…. Give away if you want such fair play…. So it can’t happen it’s all take take and no give give…. Thirdly regarding officers selection procedure a lot of hearsay goes around… The country which questions Bhagat Singh’s intellectual level for being a martyr can doubt anything and that is why we can never have an absolute govt or the organisation which gives the perfect output, as Indians we are imperfect So is the system… At one end we have legends like FM Manekshaw too … So a little bit of respect for the system and it’s needs would be highly appreciated…. Indian defence services is a great idea but the general age of clearing UPSC for IAS/IPS is around a min of 28 yrs by the time he is trained he is already 30… So who is going to lead 17/18 year old boys…. So the reason of young men selected…. Lot many reasons but all I can say is “To err is human, to blame it on someone else is politics ”
Cheers
Dear Imaandar Sir,
With due respect let me tell you that I am well aware of each and every facilities that a soldier gets during his service and after retirement…Soldier face discrimination in every sphear of his entitlement starting from medicine to food and the discrimination is not approved by the govt but sactioned by our great officers. Coming down to ACP, its implimentation has nothing to do with defence officer. Secondly, do u have any idea how much financial benefit a Sepoy gets in his 17 years career under ACP? Coming down to ex serviceman quota..Are you aware it is limited to group C and D post only? So a soldier does not have the right to join a Group A or B services because he sacrificed his youth serving the nation no matter how qualified or able he is.
Sir, it’s the inefficient Bureaoucrats because of whom the soldiers respect is being kept intact to a certain level or else all the sodiers would have been found at officers residence cooking food and washing dirty linen.
When fact is presented in a forum, it’s skillfuly given a colour of personal hatred. But that won’t change the fact.
And yes, you must be aware that not only sodiers but young and talented officers from pure civil background are also leaving the services without any second thought…
So inspite of seeking parity with IAS and IPS it’s time to address the disparity that exists within the armed forces.
You are right. There are far more defence officers than there are civil servants. But the Indian defence forces are globally recognized for their professionalism and valour and leadership. You seem to be an airman of ground duties in the air force so I do not expect you to understand this.
On the other hand, india is amongst the most poorly governed countries in the world. So increase the number of civil servants. And make them start lower. The system was put in place by the British, where the white man came in at a higher level directly. It was meant to exploit. Not govern. To collect revenue. Hence the term ‘collector,’.
By design, civil servants (except a few) do not know the details of what goes on below. And the government is run by the clerks not by the DMs. By the BDO. The tehsil dar.
If IAS officers started lower, they would know and grasp administration much better. They would then be able to make changes for the better.
The army chief has led a patrol on foot on counter insurgency duties , taken fire, and led his men to victory. But the cabinet secretary has never served at the grassroots. Or at least not for long.
Not to mention that 50% are under the ‘reserved ‘ category.
Just one year of training and there you go. Unfathomable. The only thing to their credit, civil servants do get used to taking bigger decisions. But that’s not because they are inherently superior, just because that’s how they are groomed from the word go.
Time to reform.
I loved the sentence “You seem to be an airman of ground duties in the air force so I do not expect you to understand this”.
As per you The Indian defence forces are globally recognized for their professionalism, valour and leadership. No doubt about that. But here you have used the phrase ” Indian Defence Forces” incorrectly. Because this discussion is about Officers only! When it comes to taking credit for something it becomes “Indian Defence Forces” and when it comes to previlages it becomes Defence officers only! Dont you feel the fight should be for a total cadre restructuring starting from Sepoy to the COAS inline with their civilian counterpart ? Well I don’t except you to understand this with your colonial mindset.
British left us more than 100 years ago. The civil servants evolved in these years with greater responsibilities and answerability. But what about the Defence Officers? You still live in the British era. Following everything exactly the way it was during the British rule.
Your suggestion to make the Civil Servents to start lower is a golden one. You are absolutely right when u said “The system was put in place by the British, where the white man came in at a higher level directly”.
This is the main problem in the defence forces. The Indian defence officers have successfully retained all the colonial powers used by the british Officers to exploit the Soldiers (who were Indians). Hence, now also there are two classes. The officers and the soldiers. All the rules are same. Soldiers are exploited even more today in comparison to the Bitish era!
Hence, there is an urgent need to make the Defence officers start at a lower level. There should be direct recruitment as JCO only who will eventually promoted as Lt , Capt and so on, after certain year of experience as a soldier.
You wrote “the government is run by the clerks not by the DMs. By the BDO. The tehsil dar”. Again abosolutely correct. The same way defence forces are also run by the Sepoys, Hav and JCOs. But, they are bound by colonial laws of the army so they can’t say this openly and you are never going to admit it!
The very basic constitutional principal of fundamental rights (of the soldier) is murdered daily in the defence forces by the people who claim themselves as leaders!
I wish, our leaders were fighting for the right of the Sepoys and Havildars who deserves to be brought at par with their civilian counter parts in status,salary and promotions. But the selfish and self centered leadership is on one hand enfeebling the status of their subordinates and on the other hand fighting tooth and nail to come at par with the IAS and IPS…
Time to reform
completely agree with u manas sir….these army officers get much more respect to the sepoy….. but truely the work of JCOs is much more than the officers and much more ground experience … and both civil and army are both differnt organisations…no need to be compaired ….an IAS IPS also doing job 24×7 …. its not easy to clear UPSC CSE …..and in military…..only the officers get respect for because of paramilitary….. but they dont get much respect….. just see the pulwama attack…..the forcers even didnt got the saheed tag.
Much more darkest secret in armed forces…. but the things dont get highlighted …..because of country’s izzat ….and if you do your job then you get respect….its aplicable to all human beings …..armed foces got much more facilities then these burocrates
How many people of your family are in defence forces? or your experience in defence?
In Navy there is no specific significance of the Commodore Rank these days. Same is the case with IAF. It is only in Army that they have specific role for Brigadier, ie, command of a Brigade.
Also in Navy promotion to Commodore us by time and not by selection, hence Navy can easily do away with this rank. Even for IAF, it won’t be difficult. So if Army can do it, Navy and IAF would follow suit.
The very issue of comparing two groups, one which is brought up to be a disciplined force and the other, an administrative cadre brought up for completely different purpose is more distressing. There should be no occasion for such thing. But in India, unfortunately the self-perpetuating IAS has come to a position that it is deciding everything, right from it’s power, pay and status in addition to everything under the Sun in India. ThY is the reason for our sorry state of affairs.
Reason….The top ministry even in defence is controlled by IAS and not the military experts..So IAS will never allow other cadres to grow properly…Industry ministry is controlled by IAS ..They do not allow industry specialists fromPSUs to grow. …Same is the case in every sector…Rightly now there is a move to appoint specialists as joint secretaries in each ministry…Kudos to this new thought
No body in armed forces is dying for comparison with high sounding civil appointments.The armed forces very well know what they signed up for. The solution of cutting down ranks being considered is a pragmatic one considering pay commission after pay commission the chairmen simply say we don’t understand your ranks and subsequent parity.Pl explain to us in civil equations. The aim of cadre restructuring is from within and will handle the external factors too. Please stop tomtomming Two subject crammy UPSC exam which in last 70 yrs has produced only a self serving and repeatedly failing beauracracy which invariably falls back to armed forces at first hurdle.It would be better if the govt holds some SSB type interview in addition to academic tests of UPSC to select the candidates who go on to decide the fate of country.It seems only armed forces have volunteered to do something for country. Since paymasters of armed forces are from same fraternity, the equivalence is very much required.More so with this NFFU to all AIS and group A services ,where ever there is joint working involved whether it’s MES, IDAS, DRDO,DGQA now every one with 18 yrs considers himself senior to a senior Col or a 25 years seniority Brigadier.Can you ok stop this degradation or at least help so that at least the forces don’t have to plead likes of you.
Author is trying to get some votes for upcoming elections. One who can not distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, is writing about the elite defence forces. Shit-all. Not convinced.
It’s easy to find fault with the Army. Why this sorry situation? The answer to this question lies in the operative statement in the article of Manvendra Singh itself and, I quote, “These dilutions and diminishing of ranks haven’t happened overnight, but are the result of political oversight, civilian manipulation, and a lot of military ignorance in governance.”
I therefore, ask whose fault is it? Certainly not the Armed Forces. Moreover, the comparison was started by the IPS wanting to wear the same rank insignia as the Army. This was never projected by the Armed Forces, so its obvious where and why this started. Moreover, ignorance and lack of appreciation of the professionalism, ethos and functioning of the Armed Forces is the root cause of the jealousy of the civil services coupled with the non acceptance of the Armed Forces as an equal without comparison. The reason is quite simple again. The poor governance, poor advice and pandering to the political masters by the civil servants has led to this situation where its the Armed Forces who have to come and clean up every mess created in our country. The Armed forces are the last resort to every thing that ails this country today.
It’s easy to find fault with what the army is thinking of doing in the upcoming cadre review. The moot question here is that why is the army reduced to this state where they have to play catch up?
As a MP from the BJP, why doesn’t the author resort to some introspection and prevail upon the government of the day to do the right thing for the Armed Forces. Are our armed forces not an arm of the Government? Have they ever given a reason to doubt their loyalty and commitment to the nation? I’m sure there isn’t.
The one giving a opinion is just based on selection of Civil servants through UPSC.. well an exam doesn’t prove the calibre of a person. Even NDA /CDS is through UPSC but it’s based on the entry level… just merely clearing UPSC doesn’t make you an Armed Forces Officer… U again have to crack the SSB and medicals. Contrary civil servants do not go through such rigorous selection process. The training in academy is even more tough. At every stage of his career the Officer needs to prove his worth again and again before finally getting promoted unlike civil servants who keep yapping about UPSC all the time and take it as a hall pass for every perks and pay till they retire. And let’s not talk about quotas,reservations,and the integrity factor of civil servants. Most would have assets disproportionate to their income. The opinion maker am sure would have put all these matters under the rug with an excuse that civil servants ve cleared UPSC. Clearing an exam is no longer a criteria for life time royalty. Their promotions too should be like Army where performance is scaled every day for the whole year on number of aspects from professional to personal. Moreover please don’t talk rubbish about pay and allowance of army. They are paid in peanuts. Please compare the allowances, a place like Gaya is field area for civil servants and are paid up-to 30k as allowance and for army it’s a peace area.. And the govt was prompt to withdraw rations from them… Even the withdrawal of rations is the master mind of Civil servants. Shamefully the nation backs out on feeding their forces but arguably ready to pay Civil servants handsomely with added perks like their birth right.
Army never interfered in Civil servants cadre restructuring…now there are so many IGs so many DIGs even for sanitation there is an IG , a job that can easily be handled by a Sergent rank in Armed Forces… So why are Civil servants panicked when army is broadening it’s view??
The fact is army officers are multi talented and can handle things better, far more dependable and trusted by the nation and people are fed up of Civil servants..hence an upgradation would be a big threat to their existence.
What does the writer know about the armed forces !It is like @ बेगानी शादी अब्दुल्ला दिवाना ! What has he done as a political person in his constituency . We must change with times .
There is nothing wrong in fulfilling the aspirations of young officers .
Don’t just shirk the process . The political class to which the writer belongs is well known . He should better shut his mouth . After all a politician !
Army officers were at par with civil servants right from the time of Britishers.IES,IAS& MILITARY officer were most coveted positions.
So ,stating that army & civil servants aren’t at par is prejudice by the author
Well said..
The proposal is ok….
But why…
Why each and every time defence officers are crying for payment leaving solders left alone with their status.
If defence officers are claiming to be treated as equal to IAS , IPS. Ever, the think about soilders to upgrade by any means, why not soilders then be comaired to SSC staff and why not imply SSC type promotion policy. They are crying for fast promotion, and why a sepoy is only a sepoy till 20 years of service….
Justice should be done for both….
My friend, a jawan is a jawan because he is not graduate. Even they have promotions. They get promoted to senior most rank of a subedar major in their cadre. They can’t become officers because they aren’t graduates.
In which world u live? The entry level qualification for defence force is 10+2.. And 60 percent sailors and airmen are graduates..Out of the left over 40 %, 20 percent are Post graduates and left over 20 % are MBAs…In Indian Air Force airmen are more qualified in comparison to officers.
If they are so qualified…..then why dont they appear for officers. I think there are many oppurtunities in forces for men to become officer if they really have potential……….might be most of them must have just accumulated degrees after joining forces…..but must be lacking the basic IQ for becoming an officer in defence forces……otherwise they should give it a try rather than cursing Officers who command them!
I feel sorry for your mentality. Let alone SSB, a good number of airmen/sailor clear Bank PO ,SSC,PCS, IIT and also UPSC every year but struggles to get relieve from the force. Most of the time the matter goes to court.It’s a kind of jail. Once u join as a soldier u have no rights to upgrade ur career. If u really want to know the facts put an RTI asking how many soldiers have been denied discharge from service every year. And how many men leave the services prematurely after completing their initial engagement. Approximately 15000 Airmen leave the service every year after their initial engagement (jail term) of 20 years is over.Same with the Navy. And all of them secure good posts are in PSUs , Central Govt and leading Software and management companies in India and abroad. Don’t they deserve to be at par with their civilian counterpart while in service? Who is fighting for them?
If they are willing become officers then they are free to clear the requisite exam and interview. By the way there is an exam existing by which they still get to live their dreams and to mention there is a Army commander existing who once was a couple in IAF. Reading your articles you seem to be someone who has tried several times and finally failed to achieve those ranks. And the connotation of word exploit you used was severely wrong . Well there is a restructuring required in Armed Forces (top to bottom) and it happening all along . You must take a note any wrong decision taken by an officer in the Armed forces can result in a body bag. Even a simple decision taken as Airmen Mess IC can teach you wonders, you won’t understand because you never took it I guess.
Regards from a fellow soilder.
Well said.
Manas
Firstly I must tell you that I feel sorry for your mentallity……you look like a disgruntled guy….who is not ready to work in the framework of the Forces.
you are putting across wrong facts………infact forces encourage men to become officers…..there are many avenues like ACC entry in Army and likewise oppurtunities exist in Airforce and Navy as well…….those who are competent do clear these internal exams and become officers…….and also policy exist in defence forces(through proper channel) that if you clear any exam in govt sector with higher pay….the services will release you to join the later service.
In regards to people joining good posts …post retirement …..it is because of the various technical cources which services make them do as part of constant upgradation of an indl and on job experience that they have accuired during the service…..again not everyone gets these jobs.
Moreover people clearing IIT and Civil services………numbers are few and exceptions are always there.
So please don’t demean the services and if you really have potential prove it on ground …..and dont make generalised statement.
Karan,
Thanks for the ‘disgruntled’ title!
Kindly enlighten me which of the facts that I have brought out are wrong? Yes I am well aware about ACC entry in Army and SNCO commissioning in IAF. But I wish u could analyse the number of soldiers/airmen selected as officers in the last five years.
And don’t twist the fact by saying that people are released from the forces if they get selected to civil post with higher pay…The policy exists only for group A posts..And as per the understanding of our defence officer PCS officers are not considered as group A officers!
When a Sepoy/aircrafts men/seamen get selected as a Custom Inspector , Income Tax Inspector or Tehsildar he is not released from the service citing that these are not group A post.
And saying that all the retired soldiers get job on the basis of their experience in the defence forces is really hillarious..what job prosect do u find in civil for a infantry men with 17 years experience. He can only become a security guard in the shopping mall. Technicians are joining as bank clerks !!
Finally, I am not demeaning the services. It’s the colonial mentality of the officers which is demeaning the forces.
Firstly, nobody is crying!! Defence officers lead the soldiers. So there is a need for holistic review and since you seem unaware, one must point out that the restructuring of Soldiers Growth Prospects have been inked and will be implemented much before the restructuring of officers cadre.
Secondly, the Defence Forces have a secondary role which is to provide Aid to civil authorities. Unfortunately the Forces are heavily involved in the secondary role perhaps due to the in ability of civil authorities to control situations.
Lastly, if you are inept at a job and someone else takes on the job when you fail(and restore normalcy so that you become functional) , should the later be at parity or superior to one who has failed to accomplish their basic duties.
Are you aware of promotion policy and rank structure of other ranks in the armed forces? Who told you a Jawan remains a sepoy for 20 yrs? He can rise upto a Junior Commissioned Officer in that time frame, few become Commissioned Officers also. Army thrives on mutual trust and faith between officers and men. Please don’t spread this wrong message without having an aiota knowledge of functioning of Defense forces.
The statement a Sepoy can become a JCO in 20 years is as true as very Lt can become the COAS in their career!!!! Why the hue and cry to be at par with IAS then?
This is a meaningless article. Lots of words amounting to nothing
Officers of the defence services are also recruited through the UPSC. The recruitment to the defence services by any standard is far tougher than the civil services,when your memory power is judged above everything else.
Also an SP rank officer does not have 3 stars on his shoulders. An SP rank officer should have at least an Ashoka and a Star.
I agree with Dr. Narayan Acharya. All over the world the Armed Forces are better paid but India, they are being neglected.where civil adminstration fails is. Floods, riots , insurgency, civil disturbances etc. Army is called in aid to civil power.in other words these IAS, IPS are incapable and can not resolve the issues, In Defence also join through UPSC followed by Selection Boards and intensive training at NDA IMA and OTS.Prior to 1973 Armed Forces were Gp A and higher pay and perks. Even pension was better – 70% which was reduced to 50%. Every VB service is volunteer whether IAS, IPS or Para Military Forces. Why this disparity by the Govt. Why can’t we have compulsory military training and service for every one before joining.This problem will automatically get resolved.
100 % agreed sir, now India needs a war only then government will awakened and these civil servants think that there would be no war
Shame on you mr writer.
Shame on you the publisher..
And biggest ..SHAME ON YOU THE PRINT…
i never expected such narrow minded articles and derogatory remarks for military forces from atleast the Print.
I think time for unsubscribing you buddy…
What to write it’s the army top brass who are responsible for the destitute of armed forces. I know at personal capacity both IAS and Armed forces officers and in my view AF officers are way beyond babus but the issue is babus Over last 70yrs mastered the art of sycophancy especially towards politicians and there allegiance gets defined in very initial days of service and politicians pull them up and hence they command more respect and power in the eyes of civilian common people. Military coup is required in India as almost all politicians and babus are corrupt after so this question itself will become obsolete. Strong generals are required… even after creating CDS post a seasoned general has to report to defence sexy.. how it’s justified.. ideally Gen. Rawat shouldn’t have accepted puppet role while offered..useless post without power..
Mr armed forces are actually depleting alot of budget amount for what. Only because of Pakistan and china in the borders. Look at sweden or switzerland or germany. Their neighboura are tolerant so they need no army big at indias size but every countey need civil administration to rule and to make country prosper army is waste of money (but in indian case needed) but civil administration is worth it
Bro there is huge life difference between between AF officers and civil officers AF officers do not live in ACs and in their comfort zone, their lives are very tough
And one can IAS or IPS by one’s constant preparation but can not pass SSB because it is natural and no one can prepare oneself for it because it is natural and toughest process.
JUST HEAR MR.
YOU AND YOUR WHOLE ANCESTORS NEVER PASS A SINGLE EXAM PAPER OF GS-1 AND AS LIKE GS-1 OTHER FIVE GS PAPER ARE ALSO ASKED TO WRITE IN DESCRIPTIVE MANNER.
AND WHEN RESULTS ARE ANNOUNCED TOPPER NEVER REACHED TO ACHIEVE 53 %.MARKS OF AGGREGATE WHICH IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT AS COMPARED TO A SINGLE A VERY AVERAGE SSB PROCEDURE.
SO NEVER COMPARE AGAIN THEIR LAVISH LIVING STYLE OF IAS IPS ETC. BECAUSE THIS IS THEIR RIGHT OF HARDWORK.
JUST HEAR MR.
YOU NEVER PASS A SINGLE EXAM PAPER OF GS-1 AND AS LIKE GS-1 OTHER FIVE GS PAPER ARE ALSO ASKED TO WRITE IN DESCRIPTIVE MANNER.
AND WHEN RESULTS ARE ANNOUNCED TOPPER NEVER REACHED TO ACHIEVE 53 %.MARKS OF AGGREGATE WHICH IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT AS COMPARED TO A SINGLE A VERY AVERAGE SSB PROCEDURE.
SO NEVER COMPARE AGAIN THEIR LAVISH LIVING STYLE OF IAS IPS ETC. BECAUSE THIS IS THEIR RIGHT OF HARDWORK.
Well, if Army, is waste of money then what ever the money that the civil services officer or civilian authorities are making will remain as dream that never comeS true.
Sir with due respect I will just say that today sp of my district refused to meet me at the time which he gave me one day before…that’s irony of a soldier..what else i can say ….that’s why we look for clear demarcation of rank structure
The other major disadvantage of the solar refrigerator is the size of the solar collector occupying large areas
of the home.
If the BJP put this article on social media as a way to guage the public response as to whether Armed forces are equal or below the “babudom”. The answer is very clear from all the comments above… Just mugging up and cramming information to regurgitate the same on paper might get you a group A post but to become a leader it takes more than that. Only a well rounded personality can be a leader. In a classroom it is not necessary that the bookish 1st rank holder is made the prefect or School Captain. The armed forces officers are all-rounders with the required brains, brawn and most importantly the 15 OLQs or the officer like qualities that the SSB tests them for after the UPSC exam. Most of the comparison is with the written exams conducted by the UPSC for defence and AIS. The emphasis is not on knowledge ,ability to cram information but on reasoning ability, effective intelligence and a general knowledge I case of armed forces as far as written expression goes. However it is the SSB that sets them apart from the AIS where a candidate is tested for the OLQs. Either you have it or you don’t. Many SSB drop outs make it as IAS and IPS the same may be true if an SSB tests is conducted for IAS aspirants. But a vast majority may not make it. Since the quality you look for in SSB is a result of all-round development.
So the verdict is clear… Let the armed fit be given their rightful due being the last resort when the civil services fail and not let the simmering discontent make way for a situation that is not desirable for a nascent and vibrant democracy.
Everyone likes to think that they are more intelligent than everyone else . It comforts their ego and self -perception . This a very common statement made by people all over that the people who are steeped in academia have only ‘bookish’ knowledge and it is i who is the repositor of ‘real’ knowledge . This is something which cannot substantiated and is mostly said by the individual out of his/her sheer ignorance . The truth of the matter is army and ias are completely different services and need no comparison with each other .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things has always been more powerful on paper , and forces are ppl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things have always been more powerful on paper , and forces are ppl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
Hi ma’am , actually these things will always be a matter of discussion but the fact will always remain what it is . The way a military officer is taught to undergo the scariest of the situation teaches him all a leader should know to lead a troop or a group of people . The best example has always been the fact that when every forum fails ,armed forces has always been the ultimate resort. The matter here is comparison of leadership , I think since things have always been more powerful on paper , and forces are hippl on ground ,so ultimately people with pen and paper will have a better say .
MLA Sahab,
The day the govt starts looking beyond their nose, the problem will get sorted out.
The politicians view need not be the correct view.
It seems apparent the BJP as a govt does not deserve an exemplary Army as the Indian army.
History has not forgotten the time when some invader came to Gujarat and plundered our temples 16 times. There was a Gujarati king who had not planned for anything but trade.
I sincerely hope we are not heading in that direction.
Take care
KR
Why my comment is not shown….IAS and IPS good for nothing..army is best will remain always.
Army men are far better than burocrates.Army men should be kept over all other personnel.Army is most dedicated n honest in the country..sacrifice their life just for us.In india where burocrates are indulge in politics rather than serving people.Civil servant living VIP lifestyle..there should be balance.I know numerous cases where they show their power on poor people on petty issues like overtaking their car or not giving them side etc..it’s irony that nation’s top most heroes are treated low.I am sure if army personnel given same power and privilege in civil society then there should be balance in society n civic matters.
For those who say that military & civil officers have different roles then how is the justification when civil administration fails & Situation is taken over by military & brought back to desired results
One must be aware that the word management is derived from military science. Civil servant can never match the administration of military service even in a single field.
Armd Forces’ demand to restructure their ranks to keep pace with time must be fulfilled & civil servants also honour this without making any hue & cry.
Army ranks seeking equivalance to civilian ranks. Here the author is discussing army’s cadre management.I want to tell one, forget officers post even the military top officials till date failed to manage and give justice to the subordinate posts. Defence civilian direct entry JEs Group B posts with degrees and higher educations filtered through national level exams are compared to naiks and havaldar’s and JCO’s with two years diploma and metric pass standards. Where’s the justice now. Have the author seen those gaps in their grade pays before discussing here the grade pays and ranks ? A direct entry civilian JE having degree or higher education and grade pay 4200 is equivalent to Naik or havaldar JE having grade pay 2400 and 2800 respectively is well justified with 2 years diploma, really with 2 years diploma or 10 th pass qualification what a joke, Then civilian Asst Director equivalent to Major and deputy director equvivalent to full colonel and Director equivalent to Lt General is also justified. Poor management of cadre of defence civilians is degrading their organisation’s esteem. Give justice to get justice, then we will disscuss officers entries.
With due Respect to Indian Armed Forces.
Another Shoddy attempt to justify government’s failure and wilful inaction by an ex military officer turned politican. Dear Author please take an objective and true view of the stark situation, by your statement then while Army ( an expeditionary force) is wrong in asking for parity, the remnants of colonial babugiri IAS and IPS are a notch above the rest. While one can think of a number of reasons that the argument for army officers to remain content with shameful second grade treatment is void but Am sure wasting precious breath on an article written purely either out of being bored( lack of depth suggest a thus) or just being a political mouthpiece with disdain for the nation’s defence forces would be a crime. It would hold the author in good stead if one is sent to areas like J&K and North East where he can experience the so called friction first hand. One would also be considered wise if all these shenigans could be restricted to political gimmickery and forces be kept out of it and let someone for ONCE GIVE officers their due.
Jai Hind.
An IAS or IPS has to look after many things where as officers with same tenure in defence, can’t even take decisions. There is a lot of difference between defence and civil services. In army every time officers only crying for equality with civil counter parts. They never ever care or listen to PBORs. Sgt of technical group who was having 5000 basic was degraded to pay band one. Where as there counterparts in railway are in pay band 2. Air force technicians are far more burdened and have to deal with sofisticated technology. But this thing was never been hilighted. Be proud to be the first to stand Infront of the enemy.
Civil services Officers and Armed Fotces Officers have different roles ,we can’t compare .However civil services have the cushion of ministers,MLAs, councillors,need not make quick decisions can always refer or defer decisions,where as military Officers do not have such luxury.Now coming to doing away with Brigadier rank, Military will convince the Government and have its way like they had already done away with second lieutenant rank few years back.Time scale promotion is already in force for Armed Force Officer’s so Government is benevolent to Armed Forces Officer.Where as the plight of men in OR rank is never considered,Army gives only one promotion for other ranks most men leave service as Naik or Havildar ,they should be at least given rank of JCO after putting in 15 yrs service.This will lift the morale of ranks rather than doing away with Brigadier rank.
I fully advocate the views of Col Poswal.
Secondly, the gradual degradation of military ranks is a result of political negligence & ignorance of military leadership also.
A brigadier used to be a chief secretary of a state in British era. We can imagine the how much degradation has been afflicted since then. In the pretext of democracy political class always wants to subjugate armed forces to less abled civil administration, which is not justified at all. Ultimately armed forces are also responsible to political leadership.
The step taken by General Bipin Rawat speaks a volume of his leadership towards the welfare of the force, their motivation & requirement.
I fully advocate the upgradation of military ranks in parity with less abled civil servants if not above them.
, a sub major is equivalent to an inspector/sho of police, go back into history, a Capt in the royal British army was made superintendent of police, he was and is even today reffered to as captaan saab, rightly so. The ranks are taken from the military, you can keep adding any no of ? on your uniform or on number plate, very simple, the ranks worn on the shoulder in the civil is equivalent to one rank lower worn in the military, thus an SP is equivalent of a Capt, period. And so on, also both are class 1 officers, promotion etc is peculiar to each service, so length of service is what decides equivalence. Dig deep into warrant of prec, a Brig is equivalent of a divisional commissioner IN HIS OWN DIVISION, . Also please do not discuss caliber, when everything in a city collapses where there are heads in all departments,. From law and order to railways to electricity to water to…….. just one col commanding one battalion is expected to take over and get things on line……
The author seems totally clueless about whether he supports the lack of parity or not. Sad that he is unaware that both come through UPSC. If it has not happened overnight, then he could have discussed the merits and demerits of the factors that led to the gap. If a government wants to play this game of degrading the armed forces then it should let the environment know that young, brilliant and dynamic younsters should avoid joining the services in order to avoid frustration of being a second rung falsely glorified heroes.
A very poorly researched article.
Nice piece of work , but it seems that author is ill informed or poorly briefed by his masters. Author failed to identify that the selection procedure for ARMED FORCES NDA & CDS is organised by UPSC in a much similar way of Civil Services.
You said it truly…The army officers cannot be compared to IAS n IPS because Military officers are far above these so called babus..who knows nothing but sifting of files. . The multi dimensional roles played by military officers are commendable…be it a flood situation..civil unrest …natural disasters…just drop of hat call the military…What the babies are failing to tackle the situation…n their incompetence is very clear to all Indians who have eyes to see…
I know a IAS officer who mugged up things and got high scoring in written n a minimum marks in interview will get him IPS atleast.. I say military officers are far far superior than the so called IAS/ IPS officers..
Let the government of India stop deploying the army for internal security let the I A DS and I PcS officers look after the the internal problems of the country
Then the question of remuneration comparison will not be there
The only question is are the civil service officers competent to do so
i think the member of parliament inspite of his association with defence related portfolios have hardly any idea about rank structure and selection procedure of armed forces,even army officers are recruited through UPSC exams,for NDA the qualification is 12th std pass and at NDA they go through their graduation alongwith basic military trg and the degree is awarded by JNU, and for IMA & OTA(SHORT SERVICE) the qualification is graduate(min),therefore qualification wise army offrs are no less educated/qualified than their civvy counterparts,and even during service army officees undergoes carrier courses in MTECH,and other streams,and so far the rank of captain is concerned its not the second in commands rank,the 2ic is generalyy a lieutenat colonel or a major in any army unit.
The Military is Supreame as They are Guardians of the People The Soldier,but in Civil Govt they withdraw like parents allow freedom of Growth to children and interfear only when childten go wrong fall and in danger
This does Not mean inferior.
The problem is since Civil by demands make all claims so they go above also demand all Martial Privilages
Even Higher ranks in Civil be Done away IAS All.Even Dr C Krishnadas Unpaid Pension /my father never claimed even Hydrabad Army Service such as on Hard duties.
Military Not only Paid Highest but made use for Godly Purposes Not for War though Now no way But to be Ready till World Govt and even after as Internal Problems also may come till Mahabali rule Established by Martial Law
Chief Martial Law Administrator
What about my comments. Why my comments are not posted
Spoken like a true politician. Blame it all on military and take no action. What was done by the parliamentary committee? Netas making money through bureaucrats and hence bureaucrats pampered. Author says about separate pay commission- did govt approve it despite promising? Selective sidelining of military and then blaming the military. Shameful. Military working with cadre approved as per 1947 despite increase in the requirements and expectations. Spoken like an idiot who has worked on the finger tips of babus…
Another Shoddy attempt to justify government’s failure and wilful inaction by an ex military officer turned politican. Dear Author please take an objective and true view of the stark situation, by your statement then while Army ( an expeditionary force) is wrong in asking for parity, the remnants of colonial babugiri IAS and IPS are a notch above the rest. While one can think of a number of reasons that the argument for army officers to remain content with shameful second grade treatment is void but Am sure wasting precious breath on an article written purely either out of being bored( lack of depth suggest a thus) or just being a political mouthpiece with disdain for the nation’s defence forces would be a crime. It would hold the author in good stead if one is sent to areas like J&K and North East where he can experience the so called friction first hand. One would also be considered wise if all these shenigans could be restricted to political gimmickery and forces be kept out of it and let someone for ONCE GIVE officers their due.
Jai Hind.
All the best cops
Author doesn’t seem to be thorough with the subject. He has wasted entire article revolving around one or two arguments and has made it utterly devoid of any substantiation with logical points. He obviously doesn’t understand and doesn’t have adequate knowledge on the subject to comment or articulate. Or he may be deliberately trying to downplay the reality or facts of the matter. I failed to stretch my imagination to understand the source of his knowledge or experience on the subject. Let’s be more honest to our literary manifestations.
Armed forces pay commission is to be set up. Armed forces officers please Do not compare with civilians either state or central cadre.In any case they are in lower level .only thing they think they are only the Government and files are with them bais has crept into the process of pay revisions.pay of the armed forces officers should be above civil servants.
The author seems totally clueless about whether he supports the lack of parity or not. Sad that he is unaware that both come through UPSC. If it has not happened overnight, then he could have discussed the merits and demerits of the factors that led to the gap. If a government wants to play this game of degrading the armed forces then it should let the environment know that young, brilliant and dynamic younsters should avoid joining the services in order to avoid frustration of being a second rung falsely glorified heroes.
The problem is the officers in defence forces are not selected only through UPSC (i.e NDA or CDSE). There are multiple selection processes to induct officers in the armed forces, for example AFCAT for Airforce. At times people who are not eligible to clear the airmen selection test are inducted as officers in the armed forces, because they are the son and daughters of the defence officers. SSB is run by their uncle’s and they get the leadership qualities genetically! You would be amused to know about the responsibilities these so called class one officers are entrusted with at Unit level. Officer IC Airforce Wife Welfare Association (AFFWA), Officer IC CSD Canteen, Officer IC Sports, Officer IC MT Section, Officer IC airmen mess. And behold they compare themselves to IAS and IPS officer…….And to assist them there are number of warrant officers and men…Even in AFWAA! At time I have seen in a Airforce unit the senior officers out number the MWOs that is the senior most rank of airmen.
The demand of the defence officers to make them at par with IAS and IPS is genuine…It will be prudent to include a separate cadre like Indian Defence Service in UPSC exam…Let them clear the same exam which an IAS or IPS qualifies. And there should not be more then 2 commissioned officer for unit strength of 1000 men. There should also be a direct induction at JCO level (i.e group B services) who will assist the officers on the ground level.
Believe me, this will end an era of slavery in the defence forces.
We have surplus officers. The portfolio that could be handled by a JCO or Havildar is hijacked by these so called officers just to creat an impression that there is an acute shortage of officers in the armed forces.The shortage of men at the level of Sepoy and Havildar is never projected.
Anyone, with an average IQ can easily observe the things that I have mentioned above. The parity of defence officers with IAS and IPS is nothing but a Joke.
Jai Hind
A dedicated soldier
Good, you are a BJP MLA. When election will approach closure, then you would think about surgical strikes which is happening for last many years.
I think, you are not a defence analyst. You might have seen some army trucks and buses around you and pen down those things.
You as a MLA OR MP get a pension for lifetime even get elected for a term. Why?? Why corrupted lot is political leader and then IAS lobby????
We dont make comparison with IAS or IPS but what we deserve, we should get.
Dear Manas
Whatever happens in India is through Govts approval and there are lot of studies going on in various feilds and the kind of interest you seem to show going deep into IC Mess, IC x, Y, Z Shows the amount of hatred that you have… You got to understand that junior ranks have ACP I guess in the armed forces that you get the pay of the next rank even if you don’t have the vacancies. So the officers should come out saying that airmen /sailorz/Jawans shouldn’t be given this… Please have some decency in supporting your own because it is not your uncles or their uncles organisation. Secondly you seem to be misinformed regarding career opportunities… You get an ex serviceman quota and the other organizations around the country don’t get that…. Give away if you want such fair play…. So it can’t happen it’s all take take and no give give…. Thirdly regarding officers selection procedure a lot of hearsay goes around… The country which questions Bhagat Singh’s intellectual level for being a martyr can doubt anything and that is why we can never have an absolute govt or the organisation which gives the perfect output, as Indians we are imperfect So is the system… At one end we have legends like FM Manekshaw too … So a little bit of respect for the system and it’s needs would be highly appreciated…. Indian defence services is a great idea but the general age of clearing UPSC for IAS/IPS is around a min of 28 yrs by the time he is trained he is already 30… So who is going to lead 17/18 year old boys…. So the reason of young men selected…. Lot many reasons but all I can say is “To err is human, to blame it on someone else is politics ”
Cheers
Dear Imaandar Sir,
With due respect let me tell you that I am well aware of each and every facilities that a soldier gets during his service and after retirement…Soldier face discrimination in every sphear of his entitlement starting from medicine to food and the discrimination is not approved by the govt but sactioned by our great officers. Coming down to ACP, its implimentation has nothing to do with defence officer. Secondly, do u have any idea how much financial benefit a Sepoy gets in his 17 years career under ACP? Coming down to ex serviceman quota..Are you aware it is limited to group C and D post only? So a soldier does not have the right to join a Group A or B services because he sacrificed his youth serving the nation no matter how qualified or able he is.
Sir, it’s the inefficient Bureaoucrats because of whom the soldiers respect is being kept intact to a certain level or else all the sodiers would have been found at officers residence cooking food and washing dirty linen.
When fact is presented in a forum, it’s skillfuly given a colour of personal hatred. But that won’t change the fact.
And yes, you must be aware that not only sodiers but young and talented officers from pure civil background are also leaving the services without any second thought…
So inspite of seeking parity with IAS and IPS it’s time to address the disparity that exists within the armed forces.
You are right. There are far more defence officers than there are civil servants. But the Indian defence forces are globally recognized for their professionalism and valour and leadership. You seem to be an airman of ground duties in the air force so I do not expect you to understand this.
On the other hand, india is amongst the most poorly governed countries in the world. So increase the number of civil servants. And make them start lower. The system was put in place by the British, where the white man came in at a higher level directly. It was meant to exploit. Not govern. To collect revenue. Hence the term ‘collector,’.
By design, civil servants (except a few) do not know the details of what goes on below. And the government is run by the clerks not by the DMs. By the BDO. The tehsil dar.
If IAS officers started lower, they would know and grasp administration much better. They would then be able to make changes for the better.
The army chief has led a patrol on foot on counter insurgency duties , taken fire, and led his men to victory. But the cabinet secretary has never served at the grassroots. Or at least not for long.
Not to mention that 50% are under the ‘reserved ‘ category.
Just one year of training and there you go. Unfathomable. The only thing to their credit, civil servants do get used to taking bigger decisions. But that’s not because they are inherently superior, just because that’s how they are groomed from the word go.
Time to reform.
I loved the sentence “You seem to be an airman of ground duties in the air force so I do not expect you to understand this”.
As per you The Indian defence forces are globally recognized for their professionalism, valour and leadership. No doubt about that. But here you have used the phrase ” Indian Defence Forces” incorrectly. Because this discussion is about Officers only! When it comes to taking credit for something it becomes “Indian Defence Forces” and when it comes to previlages it becomes Defence officers only! Dont you feel the fight should be for a total cadre restructuring starting from Sepoy to the COAS inline with their civilian counterpart ? Well I don’t except you to understand this with your colonial mindset.
British left us more than 100 years ago. The civil servants evolved in these years with greater responsibilities and answerability. But what about the Defence Officers? You still live in the British era. Following everything exactly the way it was during the British rule.
Your suggestion to make the Civil Servents to start lower is a golden one. You are absolutely right when u said “The system was put in place by the British, where the white man came in at a higher level directly”.
This is the main problem in the defence forces. The Indian defence officers have successfully retained all the colonial powers used by the british Officers to exploit the Soldiers (who were Indians). Hence, now also there are two classes. The officers and the soldiers. All the rules are same. Soldiers are exploited even more today in comparison to the Bitish era!
Hence, there is an urgent need to make the Defence officers start at a lower level. There should be direct recruitment as JCO only who will eventually promoted as Lt , Capt and so on, after certain year of experience as a soldier.
You wrote “the government is run by the clerks not by the DMs. By the BDO. The tehsil dar”. Again abosolutely correct. The same way defence forces are also run by the Sepoys, Hav and JCOs. But, they are bound by colonial laws of the army so they can’t say this openly and you are never going to admit it!
The very basic constitutional principal of fundamental rights (of the soldier) is murdered daily in the defence forces by the people who claim themselves as leaders!
I wish, our leaders were fighting for the right of the Sepoys and Havildars who deserves to be brought at par with their civilian counter parts in status,salary and promotions. But the selfish and self centered leadership is on one hand enfeebling the status of their subordinates and on the other hand fighting tooth and nail to come at par with the IAS and IPS…
Time to reform
completely agree with u manas sir….these army officers get much more respect to the sepoy….. but truely the work of JCOs is much more than the officers and much more ground experience … and both civil and army are both differnt organisations…no need to be compaired ….an IAS IPS also doing job 24×7 …. its not easy to clear UPSC CSE …..and in military…..only the officers get respect for because of paramilitary….. but they dont get much respect….. just see the pulwama attack…..the forcers even didnt got the saheed tag.
Much more darkest secret in armed forces…. but the things dont get highlighted …..because of country’s izzat ….and if you do your job then you get respect….its aplicable to all human beings …..armed foces got much more facilities then these burocrates
How many people of your family are in defence forces? or your experience in defence?
In Navy there is no specific significance of the Commodore Rank these days. Same is the case with IAF. It is only in Army that they have specific role for Brigadier, ie, command of a Brigade.
Also in Navy promotion to Commodore us by time and not by selection, hence Navy can easily do away with this rank. Even for IAF, it won’t be difficult. So if Army can do it, Navy and IAF would follow suit.
The very issue of comparing two groups, one which is brought up to be a disciplined force and the other, an administrative cadre brought up for completely different purpose is more distressing. There should be no occasion for such thing. But in India, unfortunately the self-perpetuating IAS has come to a position that it is deciding everything, right from it’s power, pay and status in addition to everything under the Sun in India. ThY is the reason for our sorry state of affairs.
Reason….The top ministry even in defence is controlled by IAS and not the military experts..So IAS will never allow other cadres to grow properly…Industry ministry is controlled by IAS ..They do not allow industry specialists fromPSUs to grow. …Same is the case in every sector…Rightly now there is a move to appoint specialists as joint secretaries in each ministry…Kudos to this new thought
No body in armed forces is dying for comparison with high sounding civil appointments.The armed forces very well know what they signed up for. The solution of cutting down ranks being considered is a pragmatic one considering pay commission after pay commission the chairmen simply say we don’t understand your ranks and subsequent parity.Pl explain to us in civil equations. The aim of cadre restructuring is from within and will handle the external factors too. Please stop tomtomming Two subject crammy UPSC exam which in last 70 yrs has produced only a self serving and repeatedly failing beauracracy which invariably falls back to armed forces at first hurdle.It would be better if the govt holds some SSB type interview in addition to academic tests of UPSC to select the candidates who go on to decide the fate of country.It seems only armed forces have volunteered to do something for country. Since paymasters of armed forces are from same fraternity, the equivalence is very much required.More so with this NFFU to all AIS and group A services ,where ever there is joint working involved whether it’s MES, IDAS, DRDO,DGQA now every one with 18 yrs considers himself senior to a senior Col or a 25 years seniority Brigadier.Can you ok stop this degradation or at least help so that at least the forces don’t have to plead likes of you.
Author is trying to get some votes for upcoming elections. One who can not distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, is writing about the elite defence forces. Shit-all. Not convinced.
It’s easy to find fault with the Army. Why this sorry situation? The answer to this question lies in the operative statement in the article of Manvendra Singh itself and, I quote, “These dilutions and diminishing of ranks haven’t happened overnight, but are the result of political oversight, civilian manipulation, and a lot of military ignorance in governance.”
I therefore, ask whose fault is it? Certainly not the Armed Forces. Moreover, the comparison was started by the IPS wanting to wear the same rank insignia as the Army. This was never projected by the Armed Forces, so its obvious where and why this started. Moreover, ignorance and lack of appreciation of the professionalism, ethos and functioning of the Armed Forces is the root cause of the jealousy of the civil services coupled with the non acceptance of the Armed Forces as an equal without comparison. The reason is quite simple again. The poor governance, poor advice and pandering to the political masters by the civil servants has led to this situation where its the Armed Forces who have to come and clean up every mess created in our country. The Armed forces are the last resort to every thing that ails this country today.
It’s easy to find fault with what the army is thinking of doing in the upcoming cadre review. The moot question here is that why is the army reduced to this state where they have to play catch up?
As a MP from the BJP, why doesn’t the author resort to some introspection and prevail upon the government of the day to do the right thing for the Armed Forces. Are our armed forces not an arm of the Government? Have they ever given a reason to doubt their loyalty and commitment to the nation? I’m sure there isn’t.
The one giving a opinion is just based on selection of Civil servants through UPSC.. well an exam doesn’t prove the calibre of a person. Even NDA /CDS is through UPSC but it’s based on the entry level… just merely clearing UPSC doesn’t make you an Armed Forces Officer… U again have to crack the SSB and medicals. Contrary civil servants do not go through such rigorous selection process. The training in academy is even more tough. At every stage of his career the Officer needs to prove his worth again and again before finally getting promoted unlike civil servants who keep yapping about UPSC all the time and take it as a hall pass for every perks and pay till they retire. And let’s not talk about quotas,reservations,and the integrity factor of civil servants. Most would have assets disproportionate to their income. The opinion maker am sure would have put all these matters under the rug with an excuse that civil servants ve cleared UPSC. Clearing an exam is no longer a criteria for life time royalty. Their promotions too should be like Army where performance is scaled every day for the whole year on number of aspects from professional to personal. Moreover please don’t talk rubbish about pay and allowance of army. They are paid in peanuts. Please compare the allowances, a place like Gaya is field area for civil servants and are paid up-to 30k as allowance and for army it’s a peace area.. And the govt was prompt to withdraw rations from them… Even the withdrawal of rations is the master mind of Civil servants. Shamefully the nation backs out on feeding their forces but arguably ready to pay Civil servants handsomely with added perks like their birth right.
Army never interfered in Civil servants cadre restructuring…now there are so many IGs so many DIGs even for sanitation there is an IG , a job that can easily be handled by a Sergent rank in Armed Forces… So why are Civil servants panicked when army is broadening it’s view??
The fact is army officers are multi talented and can handle things better, far more dependable and trusted by the nation and people are fed up of Civil servants..hence an upgradation would be a big threat to their existence.
What does the writer know about the armed forces !It is like @ बेगानी शादी अब्दुल्ला दिवाना ! What has he done as a political person in his constituency . We must change with times .
There is nothing wrong in fulfilling the aspirations of young officers .
Don’t just shirk the process . The political class to which the writer belongs is well known . He should better shut his mouth . After all a politician !
Army officers were at par with civil servants right from the time of Britishers.IES,IAS& MILITARY officer were most coveted positions.
So ,stating that army & civil servants aren’t at par is prejudice by the author
The article is a shameless, though in veil, political attempt to denigrate the armed forces.
For IPS, Personal Interview should be replaced with SSB
Well said..
The proposal is ok….
But why…
Why each and every time defence officers are crying for payment leaving solders left alone with their status.
If defence officers are claiming to be treated as equal to IAS , IPS. Ever, the think about soilders to upgrade by any means, why not soilders then be comaired to SSC staff and why not imply SSC type promotion policy. They are crying for fast promotion, and why a sepoy is only a sepoy till 20 years of service….
Justice should be done for both….
My friend, a jawan is a jawan because he is not graduate. Even they have promotions. They get promoted to senior most rank of a subedar major in their cadre. They can’t become officers because they aren’t graduates.
In which world u live? The entry level qualification for defence force is 10+2.. And 60 percent sailors and airmen are graduates..Out of the left over 40 %, 20 percent are Post graduates and left over 20 % are MBAs…In Indian Air Force airmen are more qualified in comparison to officers.
If they are so qualified…..then why dont they appear for officers. I think there are many oppurtunities in forces for men to become officer if they really have potential……….might be most of them must have just accumulated degrees after joining forces…..but must be lacking the basic IQ for becoming an officer in defence forces……otherwise they should give it a try rather than cursing Officers who command them!
I feel sorry for your mentality. Let alone SSB, a good number of airmen/sailor clear Bank PO ,SSC,PCS, IIT and also UPSC every year but struggles to get relieve from the force. Most of the time the matter goes to court.It’s a kind of jail. Once u join as a soldier u have no rights to upgrade ur career. If u really want to know the facts put an RTI asking how many soldiers have been denied discharge from service every year. And how many men leave the services prematurely after completing their initial engagement. Approximately 15000 Airmen leave the service every year after their initial engagement (jail term) of 20 years is over.Same with the Navy. And all of them secure good posts are in PSUs , Central Govt and leading Software and management companies in India and abroad. Don’t they deserve to be at par with their civilian counterpart while in service? Who is fighting for them?
If they are willing become officers then they are free to clear the requisite exam and interview. By the way there is an exam existing by which they still get to live their dreams and to mention there is a Army commander existing who once was a couple in IAF. Reading your articles you seem to be someone who has tried several times and finally failed to achieve those ranks. And the connotation of word exploit you used was severely wrong . Well there is a restructuring required in Armed Forces (top to bottom) and it happening all along . You must take a note any wrong decision taken by an officer in the Armed forces can result in a body bag. Even a simple decision taken as Airmen Mess IC can teach you wonders, you won’t understand because you never took it I guess.
Regards from a fellow soilder.
Well said.
Manas
Firstly I must tell you that I feel sorry for your mentallity……you look like a disgruntled guy….who is not ready to work in the framework of the Forces.
you are putting across wrong facts………infact forces encourage men to become officers…..there are many avenues like ACC entry in Army and likewise oppurtunities exist in Airforce and Navy as well…….those who are competent do clear these internal exams and become officers…….and also policy exist in defence forces(through proper channel) that if you clear any exam in govt sector with higher pay….the services will release you to join the later service.
In regards to people joining good posts …post retirement …..it is because of the various technical cources which services make them do as part of constant upgradation of an indl and on job experience that they have accuired during the service…..again not everyone gets these jobs.
Moreover people clearing IIT and Civil services………numbers are few and exceptions are always there.
So please don’t demean the services and if you really have potential prove it on ground …..and dont make generalised statement.
Karan,
Thanks for the ‘disgruntled’ title!
Kindly enlighten me which of the facts that I have brought out are wrong? Yes I am well aware about ACC entry in Army and SNCO commissioning in IAF. But I wish u could analyse the number of soldiers/airmen selected as officers in the last five years.
And don’t twist the fact by saying that people are released from the forces if they get selected to civil post with higher pay…The policy exists only for group A posts..And as per the understanding of our defence officer PCS officers are not considered as group A officers!
When a Sepoy/aircrafts men/seamen get selected as a Custom Inspector , Income Tax Inspector or Tehsildar he is not released from the service citing that these are not group A post.
And saying that all the retired soldiers get job on the basis of their experience in the defence forces is really hillarious..what job prosect do u find in civil for a infantry men with 17 years experience. He can only become a security guard in the shopping mall. Technicians are joining as bank clerks !!
Finally, I am not demeaning the services. It’s the colonial mentality of the officers which is demeaning the forces.
Firstly, nobody is crying!! Defence officers lead the soldiers. So there is a need for holistic review and since you seem unaware, one must point out that the restructuring of Soldiers Growth Prospects have been inked and will be implemented much before the restructuring of officers cadre.
Secondly, the Defence Forces have a secondary role which is to provide Aid to civil authorities. Unfortunately the Forces are heavily involved in the secondary role perhaps due to the in ability of civil authorities to control situations.
Lastly, if you are inept at a job and someone else takes on the job when you fail(and restore normalcy so that you become functional) , should the later be at parity or superior to one who has failed to accomplish their basic duties.
Are you aware of promotion policy and rank structure of other ranks in the armed forces? Who told you a Jawan remains a sepoy for 20 yrs? He can rise upto a Junior Commissioned Officer in that time frame, few become Commissioned Officers also. Army thrives on mutual trust and faith between officers and men. Please don’t spread this wrong message without having an aiota knowledge of functioning of Defense forces.
The statement a Sepoy can become a JCO in 20 years is as true as very Lt can become the COAS in their career!!!! Why the hue and cry to be at par with IAS then?
This is a meaningless article. Lots of words amounting to nothing
Shashi Thrur has written it
Officers of the defence services are also recruited through the UPSC. The recruitment to the defence services by any standard is far tougher than the civil services,when your memory power is judged above everything else.
Also an SP rank officer does not have 3 stars on his shoulders. An SP rank officer should have at least an Ashoka and a Star.
Sad state of affairs… The unfortunate thing is that the nation will pay for degrading the armed forces… Tomorrow if not today.
Armed forces are far Superior in every aspect. They must be positioned above civil servants.
I agree with Dr. Narayan Acharya. All over the world the Armed Forces are better paid but India, they are being neglected.where civil adminstration fails is. Floods, riots , insurgency, civil disturbances etc. Army is called in aid to civil power.in other words these IAS, IPS are incapable and can not resolve the issues, In Defence also join through UPSC followed by Selection Boards and intensive training at NDA IMA and OTS.Prior to 1973 Armed Forces were Gp A and higher pay and perks. Even pension was better – 70% which was reduced to 50%. Every VB service is volunteer whether IAS, IPS or Para Military Forces. Why this disparity by the Govt. Why can’t we have compulsory military training and service for every one before joining.This problem will automatically get resolved.
100 % agreed sir, now India needs a war only then government will awakened and these civil servants think that there would be no war